 Bioware Grades Confusion, Delta Bioware??? |
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 Feb 25 2006, 08:36 PM
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#26
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Hoppelhäschen 5000  Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951  |
Look, you are reading more into the sentence than it really says - especially to what it is higher grade (it may be better than Standard, but worse than Alpha).
Given that SR4 still has some confusing leftovers, it is not very wise to try to extract strong exclusions from implications that are only potentially valid - and given the streamlined setup of SR4, such an exclusion would be more likely noted as a hard rule. There are no hard rules what grades represent, either - grades referred to the overall quality of a job. On the other hand, Categories of Implants in SR4 aren't even more than simple arrangements, and sometimes plain wrong - a Sim Rig is Headware, but grouped as Bodyware. |
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Feb 25 2006, 11:12 PM
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#27
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 126 Joined: 26-January 06 Member No.: 8,193 |
I don't think that I'm saying anything that hasn't been known at least since Shadowtech. "Bioware that has been protein-matched and grown from the host's cellular matrix takes less of a toll on the body's functioning than does regular bioware. Such bioware is referred to as cultured bioware. Cultured bioware is implanted at a reduced Body Cost (the item's Body Cost multiplied by .75, a 25 percent reduction....multiply the item's nuyen price by 4). All neural bioware is cultured bioware. Body Cost and monetary factors are already figured in to the listed values for neural bioware." (Shadowtech, page 6) This is consistent with the rules as presented in SR4. You are free to call the SR4 rules "confusing leftovers," but in the absence of more definitive rules that say otherwise, I see no reason to change my understanding of cultured bioware. |
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Feb 25 2006, 11:29 PM
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#28
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Which handled Bioware completly different than SR4...
And exactly here is the problem - it isn't. 'It's always been that way' doesn't work well with edition changes.
Oh, certainly I'm not calling the basic rules 'confusing leftovers', there is just some wording that doesn't match the core of those rules presented in SR4 that perfectly. |
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Feb 26 2006, 07:05 AM
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#29
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Target Group: Members Posts: 10 Joined: 26-February 06 Member No.: 8,308 |
So, have we reached a verdict on the Bioware grades issue?
Option 1: A/B/D grades exist for cyberware only, Bioware costs are exactly as listed. Option 2: Grades exist for both cyberware and bioware, with costs calculated as written. Example: Deltaware Synaptic Enhancers Option 3: Basic bioware can be upgraded using the RAW, however cultured Bioware already represents the pinnicle of essense/nuyen tradeoff. Example: Deltaware Cat's eyes, but no deltaware mnemonic enhancers. Oh, BTW: This is my first post here at Dumpshock, hi everyone! Ta'al |
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Feb 26 2006, 07:22 AM
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#30
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 718 Joined: 10-September 05 From: Montevideo, in the elusive shadows of Latin America Member No.: 7,727 |
Hi and Welcome to the shadows Ta'al!!!
Beware of the Drop Bears... Max |
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Feb 26 2006, 10:01 AM
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#31
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Mystery Archaeologist Group: Members Posts: 2,906 Joined: 19-September 05 From: The apple tree Member No.: 7,760 |
Option 2 is the one. No exceptions on the grade thing mentioned on p301ish (no book to hand).
Thats my two pennies. |
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Feb 26 2006, 05:10 PM
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#32
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 126 Joined: 26-January 06 Member No.: 8,193 |
I'm not arguing that the rules haven't at all changed, I'm arguing that the concept of cultured bioware hasn't changed. IOW, "cultured" is a type of grading for bioware, from which it follows that it is not compatible with other forms of grading. Unless, of course, you believe that all forms of grading are mutually compatible with one another. AFAIK, SR4 doesn't say that a single piece of 'ware can't be both alpha- and beta-graded. But is that is a reasonable interpretation of the rules? For that matter, can a character alpha-grade a single piece of cyberware twice?
Unless you're willing to be more specific, I have to disagree. To recap: I believe that this... "The prices for cyberware and bioware presented in this chapter are for standard 'ware (with the exception of cultured bioware...)." (SR4, page 303) ...is just a clumsy way of saying this... "Cultured bioware is implanted at a reduced Body Cost (the item's Body Cost multiplied by .75, a 25 percent reduction....multiply the item's nuyen price by 4). All neural bioware is cultured bioware. Body Cost and monetary factors are already figured in to the listed values for neural bioware." (Shadowtech, page 6) No incompatiblity. Also, "cultured bioware" is specifically mentioned in SR4 as being a "grade" (listed under "Implant Grades," page 64). One has to read that paragraph out of context to presume that it means that cultured bioware is just a non-generic type of bioware rather than a grade like alpha, beta, and delta. |
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Feb 26 2006, 05:22 PM
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#33
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
It is faily simple to presume that cultured bioware has 25% less body index cost. Of course, the fact that SR4 doesn't use body index renders that moot.
At no point does SR4 give rules for cultured bioware, it is just mentioned in passing. At no point does SR4 state to refer to Shadowtech or any other sourcebook. As it stands, cultured bioware is just fluff in SR4, nothing more and nothing less. |
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Feb 26 2006, 05:24 PM
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#34
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Which is plain wrong - it has changed; now being a category first, not a grade: Bioware has two categories: Basic and cultured. See:
Which, indeed, is either a leftover or a hint on additional rules upcoming in Arsenal, allowing to purchase Basic Bioware as Cultured in addition to Grades - it specifically says 'additionally'.
Yes, you really have to read the hard rule on p. 303 out of context to have a doubt how grades work in SR4. So, either way, to read a strong exclusion out of those vague wordings is quite far stretched. |
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Feb 26 2006, 05:27 PM
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#35
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 126 Joined: 26-January 06 Member No.: 8,193 |
If you're looking for consensus, then the internet is the wrong place to be. I go with #3, because I really can't see any reason to believe that "cultured" isn't a grade of bioware. Even then I suppose that someone might argue that a piece of 'ware can be graded multiple times. There is no explicit rule against that, but good sense says no. |
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Feb 26 2006, 05:41 PM
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#36
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 126 Joined: 26-January 06 Member No.: 8,193 |
"Cyberware and bioware is available in four grades" is not logically equivalent to "cyberware and bioware is avaiable in four grades and only four grades." We already know that there are four grades of bioware from reading page 64, however page 64 also informs us that "additionally, there is a higher grade of bioware" for a total of five grades of bioware, and four grades of cyberware.
So you choose to ignore this line as being a "leftover." Noted. However, it still exists despite your denial. |
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Feb 26 2006, 05:45 PM
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#37
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 126 Joined: 26-January 06 Member No.: 8,193 |
Also, I invite you to explain what the book means when it says that "The prices for cyberware and bioware presented in this chapter are for standard 'ware (with the exception of cultured bioware)." Why is cultured bioware an exception, by your reading?
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Feb 26 2006, 05:48 PM
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#38
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,138 Joined: 10-June 03 From: Tennessee Member No.: 4,706 |
I'm sure we'll see grading for bioware explained more fully in the upcoming books. For the time being, I don't see why you shouldn't be able to aquire delta grade cultured bioware. Under the old system, you had bioware grown from neutral cells and cultured which was grown from your own. There was no actual gradation in quality from this.
I think it's plausable to say that an alpha clinic might be able to culture a mnemonic enhancer, but a delta clinic could culture one that was precisely tuned and had less of an impact on the user. This kind of thing would have been unbalancing in SR3, what with the 3 "free" points of bio index. However, in SR4 with the joint essence loss, it's not unbalancing. Keep in mind that the GM has sole discression on when a beta or delta clinic is available. If you don't want your PCs to get into one of the world's handful of delta clinics (there can't be more than a dozen or so), then they don't get in. |
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 Feb 26 2006, 05:59 PM
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#39
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jacked in Group: Admin Posts: 9,606 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 463 |
The part under Implant Grades, which says "Higher Grades of cyberware and bioware known as alphaware, betaware and deltaware are available." could very well just be an editing error. In the first paragraph only cyberware is mentioned thereafter and bioware is covered in the second paragraph.
At some point, the designers might shed some light on this... :) Bye Thanee |
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Feb 26 2006, 06:02 PM
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#40
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
In fact, it is - that's the meaning of 'available'.
And yet has no defined meaning in SR4.
That would be a reverse, since we are starting with logic, and thus not allowed. All we know is that all ware comes in four grades and that, additionally, cultured bioware is more costly and essence friendly. Whether or not there will be a rule to purchase basic bioware as cultured will be shown by Arsenal. Yet, that has no impact on the availability of higher grade bioware.
A possibility indeed, just that line is in there twice. |
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Feb 26 2006, 06:28 PM
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#41
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 126 Joined: 26-January 06 Member No.: 8,193 |
As it stands, cultured bioware "is a higher grade of bioware" in addition to the grades of alpha, beta, and delta (pg. 64), as specifically mentioned under the heading "Implant Grades." If it is not an implant grade like all of the others in that section, then it does not belong there. In the absence of evidence that this was a mistake on Fanpro's part, there is no reason is disregard it. There is no need to refer to Shadowtech or any other sourcebook. However, that does not mean that the authors didn't have Shadowtech in mind when they were writing SR4. There is an informative parallel between the two sourcebooks. It is certainly preferable to use past material to help interpret an ambiguity than it is to disregard the ambiguous rule altogether. |
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Feb 26 2006, 06:44 PM
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#42
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 126 Joined: 26-January 06 Member No.: 8,193 |
Quiz time. How many of these statements are true? "One grade of cyberware is available." "Two grades of cyberware are available." "Three grades of cyberware are available." "Four grades of cyberware are available." Answer: all of them. They are not mutually exclusive. Now these: "One and only one grade of cyberware is available." "Two and only two grades of cyberware are available." "Three and only three grades of cyberware are available." "Four and only four grades of cyberware are available." Answer: only one of them. They are mutually exclusive.
The measure of a good theory is that it accounts for all of the known facts which it purports to explain. My theory can explain why cultured bioware is described under "Implant Grades" on page 64. My theory can also explain why cultured bioware is listed as an "exception" on page 303. Your theory can do neither. Instead you have to ignore both by insisting (without evidence) that they were mistakes on Fanpro's part. I would like to give you a chance to tell me otherwise. But if you cannot or will not do it, then there is no reason to give preference to your interpretation over mine. |
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Feb 26 2006, 06:56 PM
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#43
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jacked in Group: Admin Posts: 9,606 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 463 |
However you put it, there simply is no way of telling whether non-cultured bioware is available as cultured bioware and more Essence-friendly, or cultured bioware is simply a fluff term for neural bioware, all changes already reflected in the cost.
But there are no rules about the effect of cultured bioware yet. And it is mentioned, that bioware is available as alpha-/beta-/deltaware, and there are rules about those implant grades, too. Other than that, there is no way to tell what was actually intended, until the designers actually say what is. :) What I don't believe is, that bioware would be available as cultured (i.e. -25% Essence cost) and non-cultured *plus* the alpha-/beta-/deltaware grades. It can only really be either or. As it stands, the latter (which means cultured = pure fluff) is more likely. Bye Thanee |
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Feb 26 2006, 06:59 PM
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#44
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
That, pal, is wrong - read again. Basically, your theory needs an assumption build on a reverse to happen - that not only violates not to use reverses in logic, but occams razor, too. That makes it a very bad theory, no matter whether it seems to explain something. ;) |
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Feb 26 2006, 08:18 PM
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#45
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 126 Joined: 26-January 06 Member No.: 8,193 |
Occams' razor requires that a theory not be multiplied beyond necessity. That means that the theory must account for all of the known facts, and it does not (for the sake of simplicity) allow one to ignore facts which might be deemed inconvenient. Your theory requires regarding sections of the text as either "editing errors" or "useless fluff," thereby ignoring them as rules implementations. Your theory also requires reversing the status quo for what constitutes cultured bioware, which, in any case, puts the burden of proof on you (whether you accept it or not). Anyway, the next sentence on page 303 says "When purchasing implants of other grades, apply the Essence Cost and Cost adjustments as noted on the Implant Grades table...." The first question is: what does "other grades" refer to? It apparently refers to "non-standard" grades, as inferred from the preceding sentence--i.e., alphaware, betaware, and deltaware. However, the preceding sentence also states (parenthetically) that the prices for cultured bioware are non-standard. So the sentence in question has no application to cultured bioware. To paraphrase: "When purchasing implants of [any grades beside standard and cultured], apply the Essence Cost and Cost adjustments as noted on the Implant Grades table...." In other words, regardless of how you understand "cultured bioware," the book nowhere says that it can be upgraded to alpha-, beta-, or delta. Or maybe you think that cultured bioware can be so upgraded, but that the upgrade does not require adjusting the Essence and Cost? In which case "cultured deltaware" is just more fluff for you to ignore. |
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Feb 26 2006, 08:52 PM
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#46
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
The rules don't prohibit delta cultured. The text doesn't explain what the bioware grades mean are with enough detail to make an accurate assumption.
Untill it is erated, it is a case of there being no Destiny Table. |
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Feb 26 2006, 09:04 PM
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#47
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Oh, on the contrary - it is a well-proven fact that SR4 is a rushed job containing leftovers, so this is a valid possibility not to ignore. On the other hand, transition from basic to cultured might be added later on, yet the main book does make grades and cultured not mutually exclusive. Just in case you missed it: you are ignoring both.
Not really - the burden of proof still is yours, since SR4 clearly does not care very much about the status quo.
Perfect. That would imply that it is absolutly valid to get delta cultured. :grinbig: |
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Feb 26 2006, 10:16 PM
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#48
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Target Group: Members Posts: 72 Joined: 15-December 05 Member No.: 8,075 |
Don't forget those rolls take time, sometimes days PER ROLL if the availibilty and price are high enough. I can see it now, three months after a run you wanted some explosives for the fixer calls you up "Hey, you know those explosives you were asking about? They finaly came in!" |
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Feb 26 2006, 10:28 PM
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#49
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 126 Joined: 26-January 06 Member No.: 8,193 |
I'm not asking you to prove that it's a possibility, I'm asking you to prove that it is the case (with this particular rule). You decline every opportunity to do so.
At best, the rules are ambiguous. In the absence of further information, you invented a rule that says "cultured bioware can be delta-graded" rather than (more reasonably) deciding the matter by precedent.
Not only have I cited the relevant rules, but I've cited parallel rules from previous editions. If that doesn't show that the status quo hasn't changed, then what will? (To which you counter "that's just a leftover, they must not have mean to put that in." :please: )
Yes, as long as you don't apply Essence and Cost adjustments to it. But then you don't seem to realize why that is ridiculous... Let me rephrase the sentence in the negative: "Do not apply Essence Cost and Cost adjustments when purchasing standard and cultured implants." |
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Feb 26 2006, 10:51 PM
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#50
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Well, everything is, obviously.
No need to invent any rule:
The rule above, you are happy to ignore. ;)
Not really - I reminded you that it may either be a leftover, or a hint on rules to come on that matter... if you would have paid more attention, you would even have realized that even the rules you cited do not exclude the possibility of bioware grades, but list cultured as an addition to that system.
Which, in fact, is still right - as soon as you purchase higher grades, it's alpha/beta/delta bioware. |
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