Bioware Grades Confusion - Dumpshock Forums

Bioware Grades Confusion, Delta Bioware???

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Churl Beck

Feb 28 2006, 06:51 PM

Post #76

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QUOTE

QUOTE (Churl Beck)

"Cultured bioware is more Essence friendly and more costly."

Then what? How much?

That is a separate issue. If I said that "red" was a color, but I was unable to tell you its wavelengths, that does not prove that red isn't a color. For showing that cultured bioware is a "color," the following pattern, taken from page 64, is quite meaningful:

"Alphaware is a grade that is more Essence friendly and more costly."
"Betaware is a grade that is more Essence friendly and more costly."
"Deltaware is a grade that is more Essence friendly and more costly."
"Cultured bioware is a grade that is more Essence friendly and more costly."

QUOTE

Where does it says Cultured Bioware is the equivalent of Alphaware?

Never said that it was. I said that it was a grade, just like alphaware and the others.

QUOTE

QUOTE (Churl Beck)

That's one interpretation. Another interpretation is that "cultured bioware" is a subset of bioware in the same sense that "alpha-graded cyberware" is a subset of cyberware.

Which, indeed, both they are.
Just the one is a defined grade specified with rules, yet the other is an undefined grade without any further rules... then used as a category.

Correct. But at no point in that journey has it ceased to be a grade.

QUOTE

QUOTE (Churl Beck)

But hey, if the rules for grading literally apply to all cyberware and bioware, then that must mean that alphaware can be delta-graded, right?

You are right, it isn't specified additionally that the four grades are mutually exclusive.
Just, to pick up you colored cars example/straw man again - under normal language usage, that is assumed unneccesary.

I never said it was necessary. It is implicit. And therefore it is implicit that cultured bioware cannot be delta-graded, being that both of them are grades.

QUOTE

QUOTE (Churl Beck)

I'm perfectly fine with leaving the rule as it is.

Thanks - that you finally accept that all theories on that matter have to bow the initial rule "Cyberware and bioware is available in four grades: standard, alphaware, betaware, and deltaware."

I hope that you are just joking and that this is not actually a reflection of your reading comprehension.

QUOTE

QUOTE (Churl Beck)

I'm also perfectly fine with the fact that this annoys you to no end.

It certainly is annoying that it took you so long.

As far as I can tell, you've been annoyed all along.

Rotbart van Dain...

Feb 28 2006, 07:02 PM

Post #77

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QUOTE (Churl Beck)

That is a separate issue.

Since you are trying to prove it has a relevant game effect (the exclusion of other game effects) - no.

So, back on topic:
Higher then what? How much costlier?

Unless you can name that, there is no base for your assumptions.
Even then, you would have to prove that those two grade systems are mutually exclusive.

QUOTE (Churl Beck)

If I said that "red" was a color, but I was unable to tell you its wavelengths, that does not prove that red isn't a color.

If claiming that 'red' is a color, you have to show a color that you can name 'red'.

QUOTE (Churl Beck)

Correct. But at no point in that journey has it ceased to be a grade.

And still isn't interfering with the defined greek grade system, since the term 'grade' isn't capitalized and can be used twice...

QUOTE

I never said it was necessary. It is implicit. And therefore it is implicit that cultured bioware cannot be delta-graded, being that both of them are grades.

Sorry, that's a different level of implication and thus, a straw man and a slippery slope in one: ;)
The first is something implicit by usage, the second implicit only when using a reverse.

Azralon View Member Profile	Feb 28 2006, 07:20 PM Post #78
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773	We do not know if "Cultured" is or is not intended to be its own grade classification. The RAW simply does not contain enough data to divine this either way without resorting to some sort of guesswork. There is blatantly conflicting information, so the RAW itself is suspect and cannot be used to argue either side to a logical conclusion. So, as I've said, make your own individual assumptions and prepare for the possibility of being wrong when a developer makes an official declaration.

Churl Beck

Feb 28 2006, 07:41 PM

Post #79

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QUOTE

QUOTE (Churl Beck)

That is a separate issue.

Since you are trying to prove it has a relevant game effect (the exclusion of other game effects) - no.

So, back on topic:
Higher then what? How much costlier?

Fortunately, I am not claiming that we need to have this information, because I am not introducing rules for taking a random piece of bioware and culture-grading it.

QUOTE

Unless you can name that, there is no base for your assumptions.
Even then, you would have to prove that those two grade systems are mutually exclusive.

Only if you also have to prove that alphaware and deltaware are mutually exclusive.

QUOTE

QUOTE (Churl Beck)

If I said that "red" was a color, but I was unable to tell you its wavelengths, that does not prove that red isn't a color.

If claiming that 'red' is a color, you have to show a color that you can name 'red'.

"Green is a color that has a higher wavelength."
"Yellow is a color that has a higher wavelength."
"Orange is a color that has a higher wavelength."
"Red is a color that has a higher wavelength."

And your argument is simply that "red" isn't further explicated in the book, and since "color" isn't capitalized, therefore you can assign any meaning you like to it.

QUOTE

I never said it was necessary. It is implicit. And therefore it is implicit that cultured bioware cannot be delta-graded, being that both of them are grades.

Sorry, that's a different level of implication and thus, a straw man and a slippery slope in one. ;)

A straw man is when one opposes a position by mischaracterizing it. A slippery slope is when one opposes something by claiming that it inevitably leads to something worse. The sentence you quoted is a proposition; it is not opposing anything. But I am not surprised that you continue to misappropriate well-defined logical terms.

EDIT:
"Socrates is a man." If it is implicit that all men are mortal, then it is implict that "Socrates is mortal." But you just called this line of reasoning a slippery slope, so perhaps trying to convince you with logical arguments is a mistake.

Cain

Feb 28 2006, 07:46 PM

Post #80

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QUOTE

For showing that cultured bioware is a "color," the following pattern, taken from page 64, is quite meaningful:

"Alphaware is a grade that is more Essence friendly and more costly."
"Betaware is a grade that is more Essence friendly and more costly."
"Deltaware is a grade that is more Essence friendly and more costly."
"Cultured bioware is a grade that is more Essence friendly and more costly."

Once again, you've made an unwarranted assumption in the prioritizing. Alphaware states that it's more Essence-friendly and more costly than standard cyberware. Betaware and Deltaware state that they're even more essence friendly and costly than Alpha. Cultured, however, only states that it's more Essence Friendly and costly than standard bioware.

You're assuming the chart must go like this: S---A---B---D---C
However, the problem is that there are an infinite number of other possibilities. Let's convert the grades to intergers, for an example. In this case, we'll set S=0, A=1, etc. Now, we have something that looks like this:

0---1---2---3

Now, the formula we have for determining the value of C is that C>S. In other words, C>0. So, C could be equal to 0.00000000001; which thanks to a little convention called Significant Figures, means that it's effectively the same as 0.

QUOTE

The point is that the difference between a "rule" and a "description" is not clear-cut. Another example: the rules for composure tests (page 130). A character rolls Willpower + Charisma. A failed roll means the character "temporarily freezes with shock, or trembles and pisses herself." It doesn't say anything about dice modifiers, or tables to consult, etc. And although there is leeway in how the situation is roleplayed, that doesn't mean that there are no rules for it.

Well, there *are* rules for composure tests; but in that section, there is only a description of what happens if you fail. Because of that, you can't fairly implement a penalty on a character who fails a composure test. Compare that to the Fear power, which lists specific in-game effects. The results of a failed Fear tests are rules, while the results of a failed composure test are roleplay guidelines.

QUOTE

That's kind of my point. If a piece of equipment is described as a "gun," then that means the rules for ranged combat apply to it.

Under the ranged combat section, it specifically mentions "guns". The rules don't apply because a descriptor is applied; the descriptor instead refers to a specific rule.

QUOTE

I would say that the word "ideal" is a flourish, of course, however it communicates the point that the drone is small and limber, which is necessary information for the GM and players alike.

Why? "Small" is already covered under Body, so what difference does "limber" make when calculating bonuses or penalties? Would you give the Kanmushi a bonus over an IBall, just because the IBall's description *doesn't* list it as being limber?

If there's a game effect to being "limber", it'd already be reflected in the Handling rating.

QUOTE

I suppose that view could be defended. However, I consider it even more speculative than the current discussion.

Why? Your argument hinges on the assumption that cultured bioware has a bonus above standard, and entirely relies on the fact that the cultured description specifically excludes cyberware. By your own standards, the same thing must apply to alphaware. If we assume that the terms "alpha" and "cultured" are interchangeable, like the sprite/spirit rules, then we see that there can easily be delta-grade reflex recorders.

QUOTE

Well, it certainly looks like a legacy issue.

Yeah, I get the feeling that they wanted to have three different kinds of advanced bioware, which would be equivalent to the alpha/beta/delta cyber ratings. Somebody probably politicked it to try and get the names standardized late in the game, but it was missed in the last few editing runs.

QUOTE

Hm, mostly for the hassle of computing the exact essence cost - there isn't much abuse possibility in it.

Considering that my last character attempt took me over four days to complete, I don't think ease-of-calculation fits anywhere in the SR4 mindview.

Churl Beck

Feb 28 2006, 07:49 PM

Post #81

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QUOTE (Azralon)

We do not know if "Cultured" is or is not intended to be its own grade classification.

The RAW simply does not contain enough data to divine this either way without resorting to some sort of guesswork. There is blatantly conflicting information, so the RAW itself is suspect and cannot be used to argue either side to a logical conclusion.

I agree with you. However, Rotbart doesn't see why my interpretation is at least as likely as his, so the argument is likely to continue.

Cain

Feb 28 2006, 07:50 PM

Post #82

Grand Master of Run-Fu

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And I can't let this one go...

QUOTE

Only if you also have to prove that alphaware and deltaware are mutually exclusive.

They don't have to be. The rules very clearly state that higher grades of bioware and cyber exist. Just because something exists as alphaware doesn't mean that it can't also exist as deltaware. Does the fact that alpha wired reflexes are possible automatically mean that you can't have delta-wired?

Churl Beck

Feb 28 2006, 08:12 PM

Post #83

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QUOTE (Cain)

And I can't let this one go...

QUOTE

Only if you also have to prove that alphaware and deltaware are mutually exclusive.

They don't have to be. The rules very clearly state that higher grades of bioware and cyber exist. Just because something exists as alphaware doesn't mean that it can't also exist as deltaware. Does the fact that alpha wired reflexes are possible automatically mean that you can't have delta-wired?

Not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that they don't stack. So you can't have a single piece of cyberware that is both alphaware AND deltaware.

Azralon

Feb 28 2006, 08:15 PM

Post #84

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QUOTE (Churl Beck)

However, Rotbart doesn't see why my interpretation is at least as likely as his, so the argument is likely to continue.

Ah; well, carry on then.

Rotbart van Dain...

Feb 28 2006, 08:20 PM

Post #85

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QUOTE (Churl Beck)

Fortunately, I am not claiming that we need to have this information, because I am not introducing rules for taking a random piece of bioware and culture-grading it.

Yet you are trying to claim that 'cultured' means 'higher than anything'.
Proof, please.

QUOTE (SR @ p. 64, Implant Grades)

Higher grades of cyberware and bioware known as alphaware, betaware, and deltaware are available. Alphaware is more Essence friendly than standard cyberware, but is more costly as well. Betaware and deltaware are even more Essencefriendly and expensive, but are also harder to acquire and are not available to starting characters.
Additionally, there is a higher grade of bioware that has been grown from the recipient’s own cloned cells, known as cultured bioware. Cultured bioware is more Essence friendly than standard bioware, but is core costly as well.

QUOTE (SR @ p. 303, CYBERWARE AND BIOWARE GRADES)

Cyberware and bioware is available in four grades: standard, alphaware, betaware, and deltaware.

Now, please explain how you are computing a strong exclusion out of 'additionally'. ;)

The theory of least assumptions still is four major grades first, then two additional grades for bioware.

QUOTE (Churl Beck)

Only if you also have to prove that alphaware and deltaware are mutually exclusive.

I would, if trying to convince someone that he can't have two delta delta reflex boosters - the book doesn't exclude that possibility strongly.

QUOTE (Churl Beck)

And your argument is simply that "red" isn't further explicated in the book, and since "color" isn't capitalized, therefore you can assign any meaning you like to it.

Now that's a straw man. :grinbig:
'grade' describes the fact of setting a range, 'color' describes the range itself.

QUOTE

A straw man is when one opposes a position by mischaracterizing it.
A slippery slope is when one opposes something by claiming that it inevitably leads to something worse.

Which, no matter what you claim, you did. ;)
Trying to opose something is intrinsic for arguments in a dispute.

QUOTE (Churl Beck)

"Socrates is a man." If it is implicit that all men are mortal, then it is implict that "Socrates is mortal." But you just called this line of reasoning a slippery slope, so perhaps trying to convince you with logical arguments is a mistake.

Yet again, a straw man.
What you present is a conclusion through forward implication, your basic theory I criticise was a conclusion by reverse implication.

Sorry, but the one clearly lacking logical abilities is you. ;)

QUOTE (Churl Beck)

Not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that they don't stack. So you can't have a single piece of cyberware that is both alphaware AND deltaware.

Where does it say that?

Rotbart van Dain...

Feb 28 2006, 08:24 PM

Post #86

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QUOTE (Azralon)

We do not know if "Cultured" is or is not intended to be its own grade classification.

By parsing the RAW it is - additionally after the fist four grades, yet undefined in game terms, which would be necessary converting basic into cultured.

QUOTE (Azralon)

The RAW simply does not contain enough data to divine this either way without resorting to some sort of guesswork.

No guesswork up until now. ;)

Azralon View Member Profile	Feb 28 2006, 08:46 PM Post #87
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773	Wow, you were dead on about that, Churl.

Rotbart van Dain... Rotbart van Dainig View Member Profile	Feb 28 2006, 09:14 PM Post #88
Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951	Hush, there still is horse left. :twirl:

hyzmarca

Feb 28 2006, 09:20 PM

Post #89

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QUOTE (TinkerGnome @ Feb 28 2006, 08:45 AM)

QUOTE (Cray74 @ Feb 28 2006, 08:27 AM)

Um...has anyone just asked FanPro for a ruling on this?

But if we got that, then we'd have to stop beating the dead horse. And that horse deserves everything it gets. Stupid horse.

We could always buy copies of the Spawn of Fashan and start argueing about that. Its slightly less confusing than SR4 but it still has plenty of goodness. Why, with its open-endedness we could even make an SR4-era Destiny Table for it.

Logica; analysis doesn't work here and shouldn't even be attempted. Logic has plenty of flaws and should be thrown out when it doesn''t work. Why, if Newton stuck to logic we still wouldn't understand gravity since logic says that you can't divide by zero. The Federation HQ isn't on Vulcan for a very good reason.

Dissonance View Member Profile	Feb 28 2006, 09:55 PM Post #90
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 515 Joined: 19-January 04 Member No.: 5,992	Seriously. Who needs drugs when you can just read discussions about magic or cyber? I remember a discussion about... I think it was either Improved Invis or possibly Physical Mask back in SR3 that positively blew my mind.

Churl Beck

Feb 28 2006, 10:10 PM

Post #91

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QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)

Yet you are trying to claim that 'cultured' means 'higher than anything'.
Proof, please.

No, I am claiming that "cultured" is a type of "grade"--just like alpha-, beta-, and delta-grades--regardless of where it fits on that spectrum.

QUOTE

Now, please explain how you are computing a strong exclusion out of 'additionally'. ;)

See below. Specifically, see what you call "reverse implication."

QUOTE

A straw man is when one opposes a position by mischaracterizing it.
A slippery slope is when one opposes something by claiming that it inevitably leads to something worse.

Which, no matter what you claim, you did. ;)
Trying to opose something is intrinsic for arguments in a dispute.

"The sky is blue" is a proposition. Just because someone might disagree doesn't mean that it is in any way a characterization of their belief.

QUOTE

Yet again, a straw man.
What you present is a conclusion through forward implication, your basic theory I criticise was a conclusion by reverse implication.

Sorry, but the one clearly lacking logical abilities is you. ;)

"Socrates is a man." If it is implicit that all men are mortal, then it is implict that "Socrates is mortal."

"Cultured bioware is a grade." If it is implicit that grades do not stack, then it is implicit that "Cultured bioware does not stack."

I guess it's "forward implication" only when you happen to agree with the conclusion.

QUOTE

QUOTE (Churl Beck)

Not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that they don't stack. So you can't have a single piece of cyberware that is both alphaware AND deltaware.

Where does it say that?

It doesn't. If you want to claim that a single piece of ware can be both alpha- and delta-graded, then be my guest. I don't think you'll get much support for that view (and you've already confessed that it's implicit in any case), but at least it's consistent. It also has the advantage of putting an end to our disagreement.

eidolon View Member Profile	Mar 1 2006, 02:54 AM Post #92
ghostrider Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,196 Joined: 16-May 04 Member No.: 6,333	I love a good debate over silly, meaningless nonsense that doesn't get anyone anywhere as much as the next Dumpshocker ;) But just from my cursory glance through the black pit of the SR4 book, I see that the bioware consists of two "groupings". Some stuff that can be "off-the-rack", and some stuff that has to be cultured. This leads me to automatically conclude that: 1. Both standard and cultured bioware can exist at any grade 2. "Cultured" is not a grade of bioware. 1, because it makes it very clear in the gear section that the reason cultured exists at all is because certain bio can only be implanted in one's body if it has been grown specifically for you. This is given as the separation between standard and cultured, and therefore it is only logical to assume that both exist at "grades". 2, because of that same division. If "cultured" were a grade, then there wouldn't be 'ware that you could only get as cultured. Is there any cyber that you can only get if you buy it at Delta? Of course, this is only so cut and dry a case if you're ignoring the SR3 convention that although some things had to be cultured, basic could be cultured, granting reduced loss for a higher price. However, given the copious amounts of pre-determined conventions that were ignored in SR4, this isn't much of a leap. Based solely on the SR4 book as it stands alone, it doesn't actually seem that there's much of a question, really.

Rotbart van Dain...

Mar 1 2006, 08:11 AM

Post #93

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QUOTE (Churl Beck)

"Cultured bioware is a grade."

True - a grade.

QUOTE (Churl Beck)

If it is implicit that grades do not stack, then it is implicit that

There is the reverse:
It is only implicit that the normal four grades don't stack (as those are listed as choice.)
Your reverse is that 'grade' inherits that restriction, even if used out of that specific context.

QUOTE (Churl Beck)

"Cultured bioware does not stack."

So, that isn't a flawless conclusion.

QUOTE (Churl Beck)

I guess it's "forward implication" only when you happen to agree with the conclusion.

Let's see.
"Bioware is available in four grades."
"Cultured Bioware is Bioware."
->
"Cultured Bioware is available in four grades."
Not implications, no reverse, directly true. ;)

But, while it has been fun...

QUOTE (Re: Shadowrun Website Question)

Hiya,

in SR4, it possible to purchase bioware in alpha/beta/delta grades.
Does this include cultured bioware?

Yes, to all of the above.

:: Rob Boyle ::

Shadowrun Developer for FanPro LLC

Thanee View Member Profile	Mar 1 2006, 12:42 PM Post #94
jacked in Group: Admin Posts: 9,705 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 463	Thanks Rotbart, for digging that out (or having it answered, if the question came from you). Certainly clears up the confusion about bioware grades. It's what I had expected, but it wasn't entirely clear how it was meant to be. :) Bye Thanee

Azralon

Mar 1 2006, 04:36 PM

Post #95

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Um.

QUOTE

Does this include cultured bioware?

The usage of the pronoun "this" keeps things in the fuzzy, angry place.

Rob could be confirming either:

"It is possible to purchase bioware in alpha/beta/delta (including cultured) grades."

- or -

"It is possible to purchase bioware (including cultured) in alpha/beta/delta grades."

.... It's almost funny.

Brahm View Member Profile	Mar 1 2006, 04:42 PM Post #96
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006	That is all the time we have this week folks! Be sure to join us next week when we discuss the meaning of Is. :wobble: :sleepy: :dead:

Azralon

Mar 1 2006, 04:43 PM

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QUOTE (Brahm)

That is all the time we have this week folks!

But that's definitely funny. :)

Rotbart van Dain... Rotbart van Dainig View Member Profile	Mar 1 2006, 05:22 PM Post #98
Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951	Harrr. Never underestimate the power of the horse. :twirl:

FrankTrollman

Mar 1 2006, 08:55 PM

Post #99

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Ugh. The meaning of "this" indeed. :rolleyes:

What would it take for people to just calm down and let people buy cultured bioware in Betagrade? If Augementation said something like:

QUOTE

Cultured bioware need not be made Alpha-, Beta-, or Delta-grade, though it certainly can be.

Would you guys find that sufficiently explicit? Or would you need something with even less wiggle room? Maybe a squad of angels glowing in the sky sending telepathic impetus in every language demanding that characters be allowed to purchase Alpha-grade Damage Compensators if they can afford it?

-Frank

stevebugge

Mar 1 2006, 09:04 PM

Post #100

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QUOTE (FrankTrollman)

Maybe a squad of angels glowing in the sky sending telepathic impetus in every language demanding that characters be allowed to purchase Alpha-grade Damage Compensators if they can afford it?

-Frank

I don't need that, but you have to admit it would be prett cool if it happened.

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