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> Cruise ship? nah. Cruise ZEPPLIN, sorta
fistandantilus4....
post Mar 4 2006, 08:37 AM
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linkage, as usual
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SL James
post Mar 4 2006, 10:26 AM
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What is this? 1932?

I do like it, though. I once ran in a game set on a flying hotel flying across the Atlantic, but it was a flying-wing plane, and not a blimp. Aw, man. That was a neat game.
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fistandantilus4....
post Mar 4 2006, 10:31 AM
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just bringing it up since they've started showing up in SR , like the Zeppelin heist in SOTA 64
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SL James
post Mar 4 2006, 12:11 PM
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Oh, I know. Perhaps it was because the first thought that came to me when I saw the title was, "No ticket."
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fistandantilus4....
post Mar 4 2006, 12:14 PM
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Last Crusade?
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eidolon
post Mar 4 2006, 06:21 PM
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I've been hearing about this. It's supposed to be the "next big thing" in tourism travel. Pretty much like it says, it's a cruise ship in the sky.

Personally, I can't wait to go on one.
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NeonWraith
post Mar 4 2006, 06:42 PM
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I'm sure this has been tried before a couple of times. From what I remember the big problem was the companies trying to get zeppelins back in fashion (or whatever) keep thinking too big and going bust about halfway through.

Still, if it's built I'm so getting a ticket. It'd be awesome.
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Arethusa
post Mar 5 2006, 05:16 AM
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Why are they avoiding lighter than air (or near lighter than air or controlled neutral bouyancy)?
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John Campbell
post Mar 5 2006, 05:53 AM
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Sadly, Rigger 3 doesn't allow for building proper zeppelins.
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Herald of Verjig...
post Mar 5 2006, 12:39 PM
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Although you can make a nice solar powered very mobile home for a few million.
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Edward
post Mar 5 2006, 02:02 PM
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QUOTE (John Campbell)
Sadly, Rigger 3 doesn't allow for building proper zeppelins.

Probably for the same reason they game that you cant build a main battle tank, no runner is ever going to get one.

This dose rase a question however.

AIRCRAFT CARIER??!!?!?!??

Edward
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mfb
post Mar 5 2006, 04:01 PM
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don't forget, locomotive.
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Bullet Raven
post Mar 5 2006, 04:12 PM
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awesome!
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TonkaTuff
post Mar 6 2006, 06:34 AM
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QUOTE (Arethusa)
Why are they avoiding lighter than air (or near lighter than air or controlled neutral bouyancy)?

Partially, if not mostly, because of the Hindenburg disaster way, way back in the day. The industry was never really able to come back from that one. And partially because of the lack of a reliable hydrogen substitute. LTA gasses in sufficient quantity are quite difficult to get ahold of on Earth. It was explained to me once, when I asked this very question, that part of the trouble is that the US possesses almost half of the viable helium (which is generally the preferred substitute since it doesn't burn) reserves on the planet, so while US-based corporations and organizations can get enough for the occasional full-size blimp, foreign concerns have a more difficult time of it. And the gas is highly valued in a number of industrial applications so that many of the producers appear hesitant to offer it up for something as frivolous as luxury air travel.
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Arethusa
post Mar 6 2006, 06:51 AM
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That does explain things. What are they using for the quoted 2/3rds lift figure?
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ShadowDragon8685
post Mar 6 2006, 09:57 AM
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Helium.
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Edward
post Mar 6 2006, 03:07 PM
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I say use hydrogen.

It is not explosive except in conditions that are unlikely occur in the airship, and in the case of a puncture its unlikely to find an ignition sores, remember the Hindenburg went down amid red flames, not blue as hydrogen burns. The “protective cladding” amounted to thermit and ignited buy a static charge (this is how it was discovered). Both of these things will not happen given today’s level knowledge.

if there using hydrogen fuel sells to power the thing anyway then there carrying lage amounts of hydrogen anyway, it would call it very useful to be able to route fuel to the boinsy tanks in an emergency.

The biggest advantage of being heavier than air is its more stable on the ground and means your carrying more payload per unit construction materials and landing space.

The disad to being heavier than air is in fuel consumption.

At least that’s how I see it working out.

Edward
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Lindt
post Mar 10 2006, 08:49 PM
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I still dont see how strapping several million cubic feet of an explosive gas to my back would be a smart thing.

And Edward, from my college chem book:

When mixed with oxygen, hydrogen explodes upon ignition. A unique property of hydrogen is that its flame is completely invisible in air. This makes it difficult to tell if a leak is burning, and carries the added risk that it is easy to walk into a hydrogen fire inadvertently.

What was seen was the superstructure burning away.
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Kanada Ten
post Mar 10 2006, 09:37 PM
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QUOTE
Its 14 million cubic feet of helium hoist only two thirds of the craft's weight.

Another problem with helium, other than rarity, is that it leaks in almost every possible condition. The higher the pressure, obviously, the greater the leak. As said, with added stability on the ground and a medium pressure tank probably balance well. Also, less gas means better maneuverability, though to what degree I can't say (it's not like the thing will be able to dodge missiles - but with all that helium, a Firelance laser could do the job... or maybe some Detect Missile / Missile Barrier anchors about the vessel).
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Kyoto Kid
post Mar 10 2006, 09:59 PM
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Interesting...

Once worked on a concept to develop a NB airship that employed "active" lifting body. To assist in ascent and maintaining altitude, waste heat from the engines was bled off into an array of cells within the elongated "fat" delta shaped envelope.

The skin was made of lightweight polymers & composites. Propulsion was provided by four sets of counter rotating unducted fans powered by turboshafts. Projected speed was about 220 - 260 knt. with a 7,000 NM range.

Another variant had the fans buried in the body of the craft for an aerodynamically cleaner form which also ducted thrust over parts of the lifting body structure to enhance performance.

Neither of these are true LTAs in that buoyant gas is not required to provide actual lift. The craft still took off like a conventional plane but with a much shorter field requirement than present day widebody aircraft. I have actually worked one up in Rigger3+ for one of my campaigns.
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Arethusa
post Mar 10 2006, 10:05 PM
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QUOTE (Kanada Ten)
QUOTE
Its 14 million cubic feet of helium hoist only two thirds of the craft's weight.

Another problem with helium, other than rarity, is that it leaks in almost every possible condition. The higher the pressure, obviously, the greater the leak. As said, with added stability on the ground and a medium pressure tank probably balance well. Also, less gas means better maneuverability, though to what degree I can't say (it's not like the thing will be able to dodge missiles - but with all that helium, a Firelance laser could do the job... or maybe some Detect Missile / Missile Barrier anchors about the vessel).

Hydrogen is far worse. Platinum is one of the few linings that can actually contain the stuff, as it leaks through almost anything else. Smallest elemental particle, and all.
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hyzmarca
post Mar 11 2006, 12:27 AM
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One could always try to opposite route. Instead of trying to use a lighter than air gas make the air itself heavier. Get rid of all that oxygen and nitrogen and replace them with dense hydrocarbon chains. Thus, you could use safer heavier gases and still be lighter than air.

Of course, this would make it impossible to breathe outside but, in Shadowrun, that is a small price to pay.
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Arethusa
post Mar 11 2006, 01:08 AM
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Are you mad? I love oil as much as the next American (I'd kill for it), but I don't want to have to breathe it!

Not unless I can invent a new steel alloy in the process and make ridiculous piles of money, anyway. Then I can basically justify anything.
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hyzmarca
post Mar 11 2006, 01:37 AM
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If you don't want to breath our beautiful oil you can always buy Mitsuhama's kamikaze brand oxygen for 220 :nuyen: per liter at your local stuffer shack or other retail outlet.

The steel alloy is yours.
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eidolon
post Mar 11 2006, 01:50 AM
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QUOTE (Lindt @ Mar 10 2006, 03:49 PM)
When mixed with oxygen, hydrogen explodes upon ignition. A unique property of hydrogen is that its flame is completely invisible in air. This makes it difficult to tell if a leak is burning, and carries the added risk that it is easy to walk into a hydrogen fire inadvertently.


Absolutely fascinating. And to think, the team I'm GMing for is hitting a chemicals plant this weekend. <evil.laughter>

Oh. JOY!
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