 Any room left for us regular (meta)humans?, Are mandane, uncybered people obsolete? |
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 Mar 17 2006, 03:35 AM
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#26
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Great Dragon  Group: Members Posts: 7,116 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,449  |
On the one hand, mundanes have an easier time in SR4 than they did in SR3. A high Edge Attribute makes them much more effective, and a lot of things like smartlinks and senseware are available in equally effective (or nearly so) cyber versions.
On the other hand, not getting magic or cyber is not worth it from a purely min-maxing perspective. The sammie or adept will, just like you, have 200 bp in Attributes and either one skill at 6 or two at 5. They might even have a decent Edge, too. The 45 points you have saved by not being an adept or sammie will generally translate into a bit of extra skills, non-cyber goodies, slightly higher Edge, and/or some extra contacts. These are all good things, but they generally won't be equal to the huge advantages that magic or cyber can give. Overall, I think mundanes are just about right, as far as the power scale goes. You can make a mundane character who can contribute to a firefight, and who is a bit more versatile in some areas. They are outclassed by magic and cyberware. As I've said before, they should be. The second-class status of mundanes touches on two of the main themes running through Shadowrun. Cyberware represents the temptation to trade in your humanity in exchange for capabilities that are more than human. If an unaugmented human can do the same things, then what's the point of cyberware? Magic, on the other hand, represents this wondrous, inexplicable ability that sets awakened characters apart from the mass of metahumanity, which feels a mix of fear, mistrust, and envy towards them. You take all of that away if magic is nothing special. |
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Mar 17 2006, 04:15 AM
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#27
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 801 Joined: 13-March 06 Member No.: 8,374 |
Good points on theme Glyph, that is somthing I previously had not grasped. Thank you. I now have some pondering to do.
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Mar 17 2006, 04:40 AM
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#28
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Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
I believe in making contacts during game play. If I'm going to get fucked in the ass at chargen, the least I can do is not allow them to stick on the studded c-ck ring that are the 1:1 loyalty/connection BP costs for contacts set in SR4. Besides, Magic 3 or 4 will do. I'll still be better than a mundane at making friends and influencing people because I also jacked up Influence Group to 5 and maybe got Aptitude (Etiquette). But my point is that I see no reason why mundanes should not suck. They suck. That's why people get augmentations if they don't have magic (magic being Magic or being a technomancer). |
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Mar 17 2006, 07:13 AM
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#29
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
You can still have a high Edge as both cybered and magical characters. Just being human jacks you up by a point, and that costs nothing. It doesn't cost you as much as you might think.
Out of curioisity, how did you get a group that high? I thought all groups were limited to 4 at chargen. Also, IIRC Aptitude: Ettiquette is rather pointless if you have the group, since it only allows you to buy the skill up to 7, not the entire group. Aptitudes only help you if you have the skill at 6 to begin with.
Oh, I agree. That's the whole point of augmentations-- to make yourself into something better than average. |
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 Mar 17 2006, 09:12 AM
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#30
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jacked in Group: Admin Posts: 9,589 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 463 |
I actually think that this is the first edition of shadowrun, where you can seriously consider going uncybered mundane and still not be completely outmatched. Of course, cyber and magic does have a lot of advantages, but you can get along quite well without that stuff, too. Bye Thanee |
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Mar 17 2006, 10:08 AM
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#31
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Great, I'm a Dragon... Group: Retired Admins Posts: 6,699 Joined: 8-October 03 From: North Germany Member No.: 5,698 |
One could throw away skills caps... |
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Mar 17 2006, 01:46 PM
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#32
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
why should uncybered mundanes not suck? i have yet to see a satisfactory explanation for this. the whole point of magic and cyber is that it makes you better than an unaugmented human. the "it's not fair" arugment doesn't fly, for the simple reason that the SR chargen system (even SR4) is open and classless. that means that i can sit down and make a scientist character who's spent most of his life in a biochemical lab. this character will have no social skills, no combat skills, no cyber except for maybe a jack, a smattering of technical skills, and lots of flaws that will make him useless in combat. if i submit this character to a game, i have no right to complain when the other characters outmatch him in every way--i've made a useless character! this isn't D&D, where i can take two levels in every base class and have a reasonably viable character.
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Mar 17 2006, 03:45 PM
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#33
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 475 Joined: 13-March 06 From: dusty Mexican borderlands Member No.: 8,372 |
This is basically correct, and was very eloquently put earlier in the thread, as well. If you're a numbers guy and you want a challenge, make an unaugmented mundane. If you're a hardcore roleplayer and you want a challenge, make an unaugmented mundane with no hands. |
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Mar 17 2006, 03:47 PM
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#34
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
I vote that the above statement be considered the summation of this thread. :) |
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Mar 17 2006, 03:53 PM
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#35
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,026 Joined: 23-November 05 From: Seattle (Really!) Member No.: 7,996 |
The play style of your group will make a big difference in how useful the uncybered mundane is too. In a combat or action heavy group they will be pretty useless. Ditto a magic heavy campaign. If you do more social work or your games involve more puzzles and mysteries than combat then the uncybered mundane isn't at as big a disadvantage. Personally I make a lot of oddball characters for the challenge.
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Mar 17 2006, 04:04 PM
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#36
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
When I started playing Slim I had him explicitly vocalize that his goal was to have the team shoot less people. I knew that if the team went down the combat heavy route I'd probably have to have Slim move on. So far we've only snuffed an entire shadowteam, wounded one guard, and killed another guard. I don't really count the shadowteam though because our job was to stop them by any means nessasary. Dead shadownrunners are usually less dangerous than live shadowrunners. The guard was regretable though. But we did put in an honest effort to avoid shooting them, so I'm pretty happy with that. It just didn't work out. On the magic heavy part I intentionally gave Slim background knowledge on magic so he wouldn't be completely useless when the story took a bit of a magical turn. So far that has worked fairly well, he has actually had a couple of uses for that. Though I'm sure it is partially the GM playing into the fact that Slim can do that, it does allow the GM to play those parts up. Without it the team would just miss noticing some things in the world, or at least understanding them. |
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Mar 17 2006, 05:37 PM
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#37
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
Same here... Many of my characters have some interesting quirks that make them more fun to play. My SR3 characters rarely had more than 2d of initiative In SR4 they usually have 1 - 2 IPs (with the exception of KK4.1 who has 3, but she is a Blade & Athletic Adept). |
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