Are mundane and uncybered people obsolete? Reading through the 4th ed rulebook it seems to me that if you aren't magic or loaded with cybernets and wetwear you might as well stay home (unless you are a troll). I would like to have seen in this eddition more oppertunities for regular (meta)humans in the team. CUrrently it seems to me that the only real options open to non-troll, mundane, no-ncybered metahumans are faces and other charisma based characters (and even then you NEED a commlink and some skill with it) or a walking wallet (and then you would need some really great reason why you wouldn't have cyberwear. Any thoughts on this or ways to avoid it?

Edge is supposed to be the solution to this.
Build a mundane, spend half your BP on attributes, max out edge and take Lucky, then spend the rest on skills and gear. (mostly skills, since no cyber or magic toys)
That's the idea, anyway.
Whether that actually works in play is a matter of much debate.

Combat is a very tough row to hoe. But mundanes are somewhat more feasible than in SR3. I started up that thread to talk about what I was finding playing a mundane.

I find he's a lot of fun, but I'm sure that is no small function of the group I'm playing with. Hopefully I'll be able to play Slim this weekend. The GM is still recovering from an illness, but he thinks he'll be able to run a session Sat.

Several party roles can be well filled by a non-cybered mundane. The number one area of disadvantage you'll face, though, is in dealing with your single initiative pass. Combat drugs can help out a whole lot in that regard, or you can just resign yourself to being a poorer combatant and stay out of it as best you can.

You'll do well as a face (provided there's no face adept competition) or as a hacker.

The thing to remember is that even if a cybered guy could have two more dice than you, two dice don't really do a whole lot. It's 2/3 of a hit.

SR4 definitely makes playing a non-cyber mundane much easier than SR3, but it's still not overly easy.

or any tech head really.... mechanic, firstaid, locksmith etc. Though of course, many of these would be helped by a little bioware

An unaugmented mundane loaded up with lots of skills and a hefty Edge score can get a bunch of stuff accomplished pretty handily. They'll also be able to get into places that vatjobs (and most mages) can't.

The good news is that's also one of the most efficient builds. You'll need to spend less karma in the long run because most of your BPs are already invested in your skills. Your earned nuyen can go directly into getting augmentations later.... with competent Negotiations (Bargaining) rolls you're actually spending less money than the full-price stuff in character generation.

So, chrome gods that walk directly out of chargen will consistently outperform you, but in the long run you'll actually pull ahead.

Yes there is a place for uncybered types, its called being a fixer/johnson

Are you kidding? If anyone needs built-in sensor suites, cranial cyberdecks, and tailored pheromones... it's a fixer or Johnson.

Shadowrun has really never favored the uncybered mundane human. SR4 is no exception in that regard. Sure, you can have a hefty Edge, but so can everyone else, and they'll keep their bonuses in their own areas. While a lack of cyber can get you into a lot of places, you can do the same thing with bioware or just headware. And with the skill caps, you won't actually be able to have many strong skills-- you'll just have a lot of midrange ones.

If you want a character who doesn't really excel at any particular thing, then the uncybered mundane will work perfectly. And while I haven't experimented with it yet, I'd assume that you'd have a lot more points availiable for contacts. A larger contact list can more than make up for the lack of tailored pheromones, adept powers, and the like. You should also be able to take a few more edges than other characters, especially mages or otaku.

I did consider out maxing out the Edge, and I still question weither or not it would balance. Also, buying the qualitity that gives you a level 7 skill could be usefull in balanceing, however I still feel that non-cybered mundanes are at a disadvantage. As for hackers and fixers and the like, they would definatly want inplanted commlinks and the like.

An uncybered mundane is not going to be able to stand up, statswise, to cybered or magical (or both) characters. You'll have to rely on your own brainpower and outwit the folks who rely on their stats. Crazy, I know.

Assuming the augmented character isn't even smarter.

The unaugmented and mundane, in the world of Shadowrun, should be obsolete.

But doable, I must add.

I played a mundane elf in SR3 (actually my only long term character as a player ) It was great fun and effective at what he did too.

Of course, by the time the campaign was over, the character was quite cybered and had traded jobs from "elf techie/weapon specialist" to "elven hitman".

All in all I believe it's quite doable in SR4, best for "real roleplaying" than for "munchking", though.

Cheers,

Max


edit: prepositions

There are 2 routes for the non-cyber/non-mage/non-technomancer types: skillbunny (probably with social skills) or rigger/hacker.

I've got a skillbunny I want to play next opportunity I get.

He's focused on social infiltration (bland & 1st impression; you don't notice him until he speaks to you) with the skills to blend. He's got a basic knowledge of military and police procedures, a decent business background, and a wide (if shallow) stockpile of history and political knowledge skills along with a bit of chemistry/pharmacology and biotech so he can fake being a doctor/EMT/pharmacist. He speaks seven north american languages at a functional level (yay specialization:spoken) and has a decent social skillset. He's no ninja but he can be sneaky and survive in the wilderness. In combat he's okay but not spectacular with firearms or unarmed combat; he mainly relies on his pain tolerance 3 to keep on trucking while injured.

As a general rule he can throw 6-8 dice at most any test without Edge (Yes, he is a human with Edge:6) so he will succeed a lot if not spectacularly. The main thing is that he can get close to people. He's not so big to be worrisome and has no magic or cyber to trigger alarms. In our games we like to schmooze past the outer line of defense, rather than detonating it.

Somebody mentioned but I want to repeat that the unaugmented mundane will have more points for gear, safehouses, alternate identities, and contacts. Lose 60k nuyen worth of cyberware, gain a 6/6 contact.

Yes, edge can be a real monster advantage, too.

And don't forget more points for Qualities.

I've played the no cyber, no magic, contact and resource character, and actually still do. While they are not as effective in a fight as the Physad or the Samurai or even the mage, when it comes to actually completing jobs they give you a huge amount of flexibility. The Uncybered Mundane with good social skills can simply go a lot of places without arousing suspicion, they can scout a corp facility on a perfectly legitimate pretext like applying for work. Airlines don't freak out when they try to check in. Restaurants don't look down their nose at them. And knowing a ton of people in all sorts of different lines of work can pay off big time. But when the bullets start to fly your instinct has to be duck and cover or make a run for it, not stand and fight, leave that to the pro's. In a lot of ways it is kind of like playing a fixer, but for your team it's like having a fixer you don't have to worry about a loyalty rating for. If you throw in a few technical or trade type skills you can become even more useful, the artisan skill is my next development area for this character, to go with his very high armorer skill. When the gun book comes out I hope to be able to make custom guns that are also works of art, should help make some more connections.

That's what I like to see, stevebugge. Though, if the runners aren't ducking for cover when a fight breaks out regardless of their fighting prowess, they deserve every bullet that penetrates their fragile little forms.

On the one hand, mundanes have an easier time in SR4 than they did in SR3. A high Edge Attribute makes them much more effective, and a lot of things like smartlinks and senseware are available in equally effective (or nearly so) cyber versions.

On the other hand, not getting magic or cyber is not worth it from a purely min-maxing perspective. The sammie or adept will, just like you, have 200 bp in Attributes and either one skill at 6 or two at 5. They might even have a decent Edge, too. The 45 points you have saved by not being an adept or sammie will generally translate into a bit of extra skills, non-cyber goodies, slightly higher Edge, and/or some extra contacts. These are all good things, but they generally won't be equal to the huge advantages that magic or cyber can give.

Overall, I think mundanes are just about right, as far as the power scale goes. You can make a mundane character who can contribute to a firefight, and who is a bit more versatile in some areas. They are outclassed by magic and cyberware. As I've said before, they should be.

The second-class status of mundanes touches on two of the main themes running through Shadowrun. Cyberware represents the temptation to trade in your humanity in exchange for capabilities that are more than human. If an unaugmented human can do the same things, then what's the point of cyberware? Magic, on the other hand, represents this wondrous, inexplicable ability that sets awakened characters apart from the mass of metahumanity, which feels a mix of fear, mistrust, and envy towards them. You take all of that away if magic is nothing special.

Good points on theme Glyph, that is somthing I previously had not grasped. Thank you. I now have some pondering to do.

why should uncybered mundanes not suck? i have yet to see a satisfactory explanation for this. the whole point of magic and cyber is that it makes you better than an unaugmented human. the "it's not fair" arugment doesn't fly, for the simple reason that the SR chargen system (even SR4) is open and classless. that means that i can sit down and make a scientist character who's spent most of his life in a biochemical lab. this character will have no social skills, no combat skills, no cyber except for maybe a jack, a smattering of technical skills, and lots of flaws that will make him useless in combat. if i submit this character to a game, i have no right to complain when the other characters outmatch him in every way--i've made a useless character! this isn't D&D, where i can take two levels in every base class and have a reasonably viable character.

The play style of your group will make a big difference in how useful the uncybered mundane is too. In a combat or action heavy group they will be pretty useless. Ditto a magic heavy campaign. If you do more social work or your games involve more puzzles and mysteries than combat then the uncybered mundane isn't at as big a disadvantage. Personally I make a lot of oddball characters for the challenge.