 SR4 in play experience, very pleased Gm and players |
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 Apr 3 2006, 05:25 PM
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#326
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Hoppelhäschen 5000  Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951  |
As the average guard can do that to a prime runner PC, too, that's fine with me. Everyone is expendable. ;)
Why? That's usually what happens. After a certain point, only the number of response teams will increase - no Power Lone Ranger gunmen will appear.
Not really, but then again, the glamour power is not defined yet for SR4.
Harlequin is nice as an intermezzo, but nothing more - it leaves the players without any real possibility to understand whats going on.
..if you meant '..before one of those gets us', sure, I prefer those to games with twisted way adepts serving as containers for the hidden life of a free spirit. |
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Apr 3 2006, 06:20 PM
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#327
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
at one point the swat stops and the military takes over, until they start deploying nukes...
if the characters are still standing after that, its time to bring out the orbital cow launchers and the super heros as the game have basicly taken a turn into sillyville... |
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Apr 3 2006, 07:44 PM
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#328
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Yeah, if the military has no more grunts to burn and the characters are finally declared WMD. ;) ..not that the nuke has any skill beyond a normal Pilot, and even for building it, teamwork tests mean power. :silly:
:rotfl: |
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Apr 5 2006, 01:31 AM
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#329
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
Mmmm... Confusing PCs for a citywide investation of bug spirits. I now know how I'll take out Seattle if my players get too laid back.
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Apr 5 2006, 03:02 PM
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#330
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
I hereby name this weapon the "Angus Shot." Python references aside, it's too high tech to just call it a "cowapult." |
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Apr 5 2006, 03:32 PM
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#331
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 327 Joined: 28-January 06 Member No.: 8,209 |
How about the hyper-velocity strategic bovine bombardment system? |
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Apr 5 2006, 03:37 PM
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#332
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
I'm sure the military refers to it with the "HVSBBS" acronym, but the media has to package it with a sexy label for the layman.
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Apr 5 2006, 09:56 PM
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#333
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,408 Joined: 31-January 04 From: Reston VA, USA Member No.: 6,046 |
Wouldn't the cow burn up in the atmosphere? Better use a Juggernaut instead.
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Apr 5 2006, 10:03 PM
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#334
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
Hrm, so we'll need a thermally tolerant discarding sabot.
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Apr 6 2006, 02:06 AM
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#335
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 314 Joined: 25-February 06 Member No.: 8,307 |
A Juggernaut? Something with that much mass fropped from orbit? :eek:
Personally, I prefer the Bovine Re-Entry Weapon System - Kinetic Interdictor. :grinbig: |
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Apr 7 2006, 06:18 AM
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#336
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
Oh, come on. How many of us have experienced it when our most important NPC's died way too early in the adventure? Unless you're invoking a lot of special NPC rules-- which runs you up against charges of GMPC favoritism-- the best way to prevent this is to make sure he's got a lot more legal advantages than your players do.
No, after a certain point you throw tanks at them. If they've killed a squad of soldiers, you don't send in *another* squad, you send in heavy artillery. You up the power level, not the numbers.
Harlequin is probably the best campaign ever written for any game system, ever. It shows a Gm how to interweave multiple layers into a campaign. How far into those layers the players want to get is up to them; there's lots of possibilities, provided the GM is game. Which, natch, applies to any game you care to name.
Personally, I find it easier to roleplay with the one Twisted NPC than a horde of soldiers, but I suppose YMMV. |
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Apr 7 2006, 06:52 AM
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#337
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
Who needs GM favoritism when bad guys have edge? No books handy, but sin't there a "left for dead" option for burning edge, a la the old Hand of God maneuver?
While I enjoyed Harlequin, it's a far cry from "the best campaign ever written for any game system." I much prefered Return to the Tomb of Horrors, but my group's experience with that stepped way beyond the bounds of the actual adventure (as do most of their encounters with written modules / campaigns / runs). Of course, that was only because of ho "game" the GM was. |
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Apr 7 2006, 07:02 AM
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#338
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
Because the bad guy might need a *lot* of edge to pull it off, more than a mortal character could reasonably have. If every big baddie is running around with Edge 6+, we're still in a rut. Plus, if we're not allowing PC's to burn spent edge on the ACD cheat, then we can't let NPC's do it either-- so, all PC's need to do is force the NPC to spend all his edge, and it's over with.
I had an excellent GM for Harlequin, who taught me an awful lot. Later, when I got my copy and ran it, I discovered how many more iterations it had to offer. As always, it runs best when you swap out certain NPCs for standing ones in your campaign. I seem to recall that he replaced Sandy, the rigger, with one they had worked with previously-- and after she turned into the air elemental, they later discovered "Sandy's" body in a ravine. (I later took a page from that book-- in Brainscan, I replaced Sebastian, the otaku who betrays the party, with a semi-NPC otaku run by another player. She had been part of the group for almost a year before the betrayal hit. Boy, were my players surprised. :vegm:) |
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Apr 7 2006, 07:05 AM
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#339
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Good question - why not start qa poll about it? As far as I go, there is no such thing as 'too early' and 'important', and most of the time I construct 'arch-villains', I'm bored/impressed/saddend to what lenght players go not to solve that personal problem swiftly...
That not only depends on the setting, but already was covered by my post, and concerns equipement, not skill. ;) Basically, hunting down runners in an urban setting using tanks is pretty stupid.
:rotfl:
Wow. It shows him to completly keep players from any deeper understanding whats going on, too, thus getting them involved... not. :| |
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Apr 7 2006, 07:30 AM
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#340
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
I have absolutely no idea what you mean. Do you mean that they go for him immediately, or that they leave him alone until they absolutely have to? At any event, while I've since learned to roll with the punches, sometimes PCs will do something totally unexpected, and you have to deal. However, I really don't like it when I've set up a big powerful enemy for them to face in the exciting climax, only to have him taken out by a lucky shot from a hold-out in the first round. Combats that are too easy are no fun, and games are all about fun.
Your response said nothing about equipment. All it said was: "After a certain point, only the number of response teams will increase - no Power Lone Ranger gunmen will appear." You don't keep sending in huge numbers after a certain point; you send in better teams. If twenty normal guards couldn't do it, you send in fifteen cybered trolls. If they can't do it, you send in a five-man Firewatch squad or two. As you increase the power level of your opposition, the numbers drop; in order to maintain suspension of disbelief, you can't simply assume an unlimited number of super-elite guards. You can, however, assume one "last resort" hiding around somewhere. More believable, more exciting, and a lot more fun, IMO.
The obscurity/involvement factor is up to individual GMs. However, the fact it leaves both options easily open is something you rarely see. Besides which, this is off the topic. Harlequin is an excellent campaign, and a lot of fun, as you've already stated. *And*, it's the "One Big Bad Guy" campaign you said you thought was annoying. Which shows that your statement cannot be universal; the One Big Bad Guy campaign can be a lot of fun. But in order for them to work, you need to be able to *create* those Big Bad Guys... 8) |
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Apr 7 2006, 08:31 AM
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#341
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Yeah, that occured to me, too.
No, I mean the behavior that they seem to freeze in awe: 'Look, that's an important NPC, we mustn't kill him'.
It said that the response teams will, at a certain point, just increase in numbers. Which is thee case when the best (which are limited in skill and number) isn't anymore, and they rely on grunts. I certainly not said that there won't be an escalation, just that escalation isn't a spiral in skill.
You seem to confuse what I stated and what not - it might be a good occasion for something improving your reading comprehension. ;) The statement was , that it's 'fairly nice', which is not really the same as 'lots of fun'.
As you seem to lack understanding, it is not only a 'Two Big Bad Guys' campaign, but most of those cliché parts are indeed annoying, too. |
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Apr 7 2006, 10:16 AM
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#342
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
That's highly unusual, unless they've been conditioned to believe that each important NPC can hand them their head on a platter. Which, of course, requires that they've been experienceing powerful NPC's all along.
Why? Grunts have already failed. If the best has failed, and grunts have failed, why throw even more resources down the drain? You either throw something better, or let it go.
The statement was "Harlequin is nice as an intermezzo". Not "Fairly nice" or "Just okay". Before you try and insult someone else's comprehension, I suggest you brush up on your self-reading skills.
As you seem to lack understanding, Harlequin only has one major bad guy: Ehran. Harlequin isn't a "Big bad guy", especially since he's the one backing all the player's moves. "Bad guy" means antagonist; in a game, by definition, the PCs are the protagonists. Harlequin is a force behind the scenes, while Ehran is the antagonist. At any event, you're still contradicting yourself. Will that be all, or will you require further grammar lessons? ;) |
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Apr 7 2006, 01:53 PM
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#343
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
Agreed. Awesome, Wally. It shall be sigged. |
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Apr 7 2006, 02:38 PM
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#344
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,408 Joined: 31-January 04 From: Reston VA, USA Member No.: 6,046 |
I only stop by this thread every once in a while to see if everyone's still doing the "Is not""Is too""Is NOT""Is TOO""IS NOT!!!" game.
For what it's worth, I think both of you are right in certain situations. When the beat cops get their asses kicked, they bring in the SWAT teams. But if they don't have SWAT teams handy, they just through in a higher volume of beat cops. I do think that a swarm of hundreds of devil rats can be just as scary as the big bad cyber zombie in the right situation. Ultimately, the thing that I think gives the authorities the edge in most high threat situations isn't higher stats or more numbers - it's better intelligence, communications, equipment, sound tactics, and home-ground advantage. |
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Apr 7 2006, 03:50 PM
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#345
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
I don't have a book handy, but don't you just burn edge to be left for dead, or does it have to be unspent edge? Either way, you just don't spend that last point of edge.
Also, "let it go." How many ruling bodies anywhere do that? "Sorry people. I know these madmen have overrun Seattle and are busy peeing in jars with crucifixes, but we're just gonna let it go. See you next election!" |
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Apr 7 2006, 04:31 PM
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#346
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Exactly. Which is what I cursed any GM for, as using the N+1 scheme nearly certainly resulted in such behavior. So SR4 might free their mind from that conditioning...
If you can do neither, you will. ;)
Oh, as I'm to choose what I meant while stating it, 'fairly nice' desribes 'nice as an intermezzo' perfectly. ;)
Ehran may be Harlequin's Antagonist, but not the player's - that is what the story is all about. Both qualify as anti-heros, so 'Big Bad Guy' fits either of them.
Only in your definition. ;)
Nice try. ;)
Of course, as writing in a non-native language always needs excercise. Just, grammar lessons don't really have anything to with the issue at hand - that would be about synonymous meaning or drama. ;) |
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Apr 7 2006, 05:08 PM
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#347
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
Found it (pg. 68). you burn (permanently lose) a point of edge to escape certain death. Seems simple enough to me.
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Apr 8 2006, 04:20 PM
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#348
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Target Group: Members Posts: 89 Joined: 29-January 06 From: Orlando, Florida Member No.: 8,210 |
WoW, this thread is still going on.
I think it got interesting with the ballistic cow bambardment came up. Since some mega corps has a base on mars, I can see war ships in space with a center line main gun firing a massive shot where hundreds of cows are hyper fired at once for area saturation fire and damage. I shall call it the BFCG, (Big Fucking Cow Gun) which is fired from the Dread Pirate Roberts ship, the Black Angus! |
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Apr 8 2006, 04:41 PM
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#349
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 671 Joined: 9-March 06 Member No.: 8,353 |
What Shadowrun has that other systems lack is that it relies a helloval lot less on numbers, and a lot more on tactics.
In D&D style systems you can be the godlike specialist of the uber axe, and 1 in 20 times you swing it at a tied up sheep you miss. (OK they fixed that, but you get where I am coming from) In shadowrun while there is a definite scale between pleb and cyberzombie a pleb with a sniper rifle can still one shot a cyber zombie of he has things set up right. This I feel adds realism. There is no point in shadowrin where you can jump from orbit and be confident of walking away from it, yet there is still a definite progression in skill. This is a lot harder to do if you are rolling just one dice. |
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Apr 10 2006, 08:14 PM
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#350
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
Yeah, but is that from your spent, or unspent Edge? It's not clear at all. If you've spent all your Edge pool for the session, your Edge stat is unchanged; burning Edge still carries a penalty. But if you allow that, then after players have spent all their Edge, they can still survive multiple direct THOR shots.
Except you can do that. You burn a point of Edge, and presto! |
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