 SR4 in play experience, very pleased Gm and players |
  |
 Mar 22 2006, 09:08 AM
Post
#51
|
|||||
|
Grand Master of Run-Fu  Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178  |
I don't understand. What does a variable TN have to do with it? (And yes, no matter what it says, it's a variable TN system in practice.) Variable vs fixed TN really doesn't mean anything when it comes to quality game mechanics.
I admit that the loss of "freebie points" is something I don't like about nWoD. At the same time, it's much harder to push the boundaries, because the boundaries are much closer and tighter. nWoD might be a good example of overdoing it. Still, nWoD allows for greater overall character flexibility than SR4 does, for two reasons. The first is that while SR4 allows for finer granularity in character creation, that doesn't translate into a wider array of characters-- just different fine details on the same ones. The second is this: Shadowrun assumes that your chaaracter is going to be a shadowrunner. Try and make a character outside of that concept, and it starts to fall flat. nWoD doesn't make that sort of assumption, and supports a wider array of character concepts as a result. In both cases, they really look inflexible when compared to a "generic toolkit" game, such as Savage Worlds or GURPS. Generic systems allow things that both systems don't even think about; ideally, you can create just about any character for any genre using them. If we were to port an urban fantasy setting into a universal system, how well would SR4 stand up? |
||||
 |
 
|
||||
|
Mar 22 2006, 09:42 AM
Post
#52
|
|||
|
Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
Like D20Modern's Urban Arcana or Cyberpunk, Rifts, GURPS Technomancer, GOO's very cool Ex-Machina or the new Cyberpunk3.0? Right now those are the competition. No matter how popular (and no matter how much I personally like them, "generic toolkit" games are not). SR4 like any edition of SR just doesn't compete for the same market as "universal systems", nor does it want to. "Standing up" to is not an issue. SR4 is aimed at a significantly different audience. For the vast majority of current RPGers, the closest they want to get to universal systems is D20. They're considered too much work. And speaking from a business perspective they just lack the type of fanbase to translate to sustained and consistent sales (GURPS is the best example of this- each product sells on a case by case basis). Despite having to compete with a long-awaited Cyberpunk3.0, Shadowrun 4 has already gone into third printing and is continuing to sell at a rate similar to SR3 on release (in a very different market). SR4 set out to renew the Shadowrun brand, update the setting, bring back lost players and captivate much needed new blood - it has done all that and out sold expectations (it's no WotC or WW, but I'm really looking forward to see this year's RPG industry estimates, last year FanPro was neck and neck with Steve Jackson and AEG for third, this year it's likely to have beat both despite Spycraft2). The upcoming core books will prove decisive in whether or not SR4 has staying power, but right now the outlook is very positive - in large part because the revamped mechanics offer the right balance between abstraction and fiddly bits the average gamer wants. Neither too simple nor too detailed. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Mar 22 2006, 09:51 AM
Post
#53
|
|||||||
|
Great, I'm a Dragon... Group: Retired Admins Posts: 6,699 Joined: 8-October 03 From: North Germany Member No.: 5,698 |
Such players are rare. :( |
||||||
|
|
|
||||||
|
Mar 22 2006, 10:10 AM
Post
#54
|
|
|
Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
He's a very interesting player and character. The guy and his twin bot hhave IQ's of 163, good proper mormon boys, a fitness freak, and loves Shadowrun. His brother is the type to tweak characters within inches of their 'lives'. I've had to disallow whole books (Savage Species in DD3rd) because of him.
The guy plays a mage (obviously) that's very big in to fire magic, has the impulsive flaw, and is considering hunting down another players (mine actually ) vampire hunter just for the bounty. In the current game, he's been considering snatching an artifact linked to fire that the rest of the team is supposed to steal for a Johnson. They realized that he was a risk, and decided to dedicate two people to make sure he never even touches the thing. So instead he offered the team the 2 million nuyen he's saved up so far to buy it from them instead of giving it to the Johnson. He's going to get killed one of these days, but he's the one that really keeps the partying going strangely. He's the one that always sits back and counterspells, or throws out massive healing spells in the middle of combat. He plays support very well, only casting offensive spells when there's nothing else to do. He prefers Control Thoughts on mundanes to soften up the opposition. Frustrating as hell. |
|
|
|
|
Mar 22 2006, 02:53 PM
Post
#55
|
|||
|
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
Gold. Pure gold. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Mar 22 2006, 02:54 PM
Post
#56
|
|||
|
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
Aiee, I am cursed! And yet, still pleased. :) |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Mar 22 2006, 03:23 PM
Post
#57
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 801 Joined: 13-March 06 Member No.: 8,374 |
hehehe, savage species. That brings back memories. Its a tweeks dream. back when I played DnD I was banned from using that book too. That was after I brought a DM to tears with my feral multiheaded learan, pyro, half copper dragon (body is completly immune to damage, only necks are vulnerable. if you cut off a head two more grows back unless you seal it with 10 points of fire or acid damage. its then Immune to fire and acid damage so it actually gets more powrful to more damage you do to it). They sound like fun players, I'm glad to game worked well in pratise. Personally I've always been concerned about monofillament whips. Have you any expeirence with them in the new system? |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Mar 22 2006, 04:17 PM
Post
#58
|
|||
|
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
Pfft. Vampiric troll half-dragon (Black) with the elemental template (Fire). He's simply immune to damage (and a lot of other things) and has plenty of offensive nastiness at his disposal too. I bet he even looks neat. And just like in every other RPG: Just because the character can be made doesn't mean it can be played. Hey, that's kind of a Jesse Jackson/Johnnie Cochran catch phrase. It rhymes and everything. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Mar 22 2006, 04:51 PM
Post
#59
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 399 Joined: 27-May 04 Member No.: 6,361 |
While I find the attribute + skill to be a little World-of-Darkness-y; I like the setting, the concepts, then new history, and the gameplay isn't all that bad at all. Combat is still something to get used to, with the WoD dice pools, but oh well.
Personally, when I find something that has game-balance issues that are insane/easily abused I either alter it or find in it a flaw that would be well known. I still have no instances of blatent abuse (some accidental, but one I thought it so funny I'd let him keep it, its not like I can't take it away later). Heck, I have a good number of houserules (just have a cap of double the base attr + skill, with edge bonus dice being used after the fact; higher cap for skills with an exponential cost; and slightly higher attr costs) and it changes the play into something interesting for both me and my players. The way I figure it; if you think your players are powerful compared to the oppostion, the opposition generally "evolves". Not only that, but their rep makes them viable for more challenging jobs and a tougher part of the shadow market. If they want to stick to small time runs with their skill level, they are wasting talent. Act accordingly. |
|
|
|
|
Mar 22 2006, 06:29 PM
Post
#60
|
|||
|
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
*shudder* believe me, you're not the only one that's had to ban that book. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Mar 22 2006, 06:53 PM
Post
#61
|
|||||
|
Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Yeah, the whole thing where characters pay one level for every hit die of monsterness (before accounting for special abilities), and then pays a level for every half-way decent ability they have means that monstrous characters end up hilariously weak for their level. A 20th level elven wizard is a 20th level character, but a monster that's a 20 hit die fairythat casts as a 20th level wizard (which is to say: a 20th level elven wizard that happens to come from a monster book) would be a 38th level character. Playing a stone giant you're so jacked that you don't even get XP for defeating a copy of yourself in combat. Even the aforemention super combos aren't good. A Half-Black Dragon Fire Element Troll is supposedly a 20th level character and has a BAB of +5. He literally can't do anything to opponents of his level. He also only has about a 100 hit points, so even though he only takes subdual damage from any damaging attack, he'll just be cleared aside into unconciousness at the start of every combat. Plus, he can still be killed by all the death effects which at that level are commonplace (as well as good old fashioned strangulation - he can be killed by dropping him into a bucket of water once you knock him out). --- Savage Species needs to be banned because otherwise people will make cool looking characters that are so underpowered that they will get the entire team killed. -Frank |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Mar 22 2006, 07:01 PM
Post
#62
|
|
|
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
no, no, don't speak of it further! it might hear you!
|
|
|
|
|
Mar 22 2006, 07:07 PM
Post
#63
|
|||
|
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
You missed the "vampiric" part. No subdual damage, drowning, or death effects. And he just needs to make touch attacks to kill people. But eh, we massively digress. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Mar 22 2006, 07:18 PM
Post
#64
|
|||||||
|
Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
You're right, I did. That's because Vampiric is a template that can't be applied to elementals, and even if it could it would cost 8 more levels and make him Undead which means that he wouldn't have a Con score and his Hit Points would drop to 47 and his Regeneration wouldn't work any more. He'd be screwed so badly that he wouldn't make it far in an 8th level party and he'd be expected to play in the sandbox with an Epic Level Druid.
Yes we do. -Frank |
||||||
|
|
|
||||||
|
Mar 22 2006, 07:25 PM
Post
#65
|
|
|
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
I really want to further discuss how the build is still technically possible (due to more Savage Species cheese), but I'm forcing myself to stop now. :)
So, how 'bout them shadowrunners? |
|
|
|
|
Mar 22 2006, 07:30 PM
Post
#66
|
|
|
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
i hear they do things in the shadows. such as running.
|
|
|
|
|
Mar 22 2006, 07:31 PM
Post
#67
|
|
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,150 Joined: 19-December 05 From: Rhein-Ruhr Megaplex Member No.: 8,081 |
Isn't that dangerous, running in dimly lit areas?
|
|
|
|
|
Mar 22 2006, 07:34 PM
Post
#68
|
|
|
Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
That's why they have Edge.
|
|
|
|
|
Mar 22 2006, 08:42 PM
Post
#69
|
|
|
Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,174 Joined: 13-May 04 From: UCAS Member No.: 6,327 |
Wha-? they're running around in dimly lit areas holding edged items? That's really living dangerously, hope their insurance companies don't get wind of this.
|
|
|
|
|
Mar 22 2006, 09:20 PM
Post
#70
|
|
|
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,590 Joined: 11-September 04 Member No.: 6,650 |
running the shadows.... with scissors
|
|
|
|
|
Mar 22 2006, 09:26 PM
Post
#71
|
|||
|
panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
they are SINless. insurance is the least of their problems... |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Mar 22 2006, 09:28 PM
Post
#72
|
|
|
Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
I don't know. I bet insurance companies are the few clients who can afford the best assassins.
|
|
|
|
|
Mar 22 2006, 09:32 PM
Post
#73
|
|||
|
Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
While I don't have any numbers on this, DriveThruRpg currently lists CP3.0 as their third top seller, versus SR4 in 11th place. IIRC, SR4 never managed to crack the top 3, so I'd say that CP3.0 has a better start out of the gate. Like you said, only time will tell. Core books always sell the best, it's the supplements that make or break the game. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Mar 22 2006, 10:28 PM
Post
#74
|
|||
|
Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
I'll have to check, but I'm pretty sure SR4 made the Top 3 (I know for sure that at one point we actually had SR4 and System Failure in the Top 5) and may even have gone to number 1 for a couple of weeks. BTW - If that's your reference, CP3.0 just dropped to number 6 while SR4 held at 11th... and you might be surprised to see what slipped into the top 3. However, ask any industry person or distributor and they'll tell you online/pdf sales are not representative of the market and in fact favor niche games which are hard to find at the FLGS. The best indication of SR4's popularity are the fact that its selling almost as fast as SR3 did in FASA's heyday and that not only are numerous fans coming back to a game they had dropped but new fans are coming on board too (just take a look around this board). |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Mar 22 2006, 10:46 PM
Post
#75
|
|||||
|
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
Thanks for the data, Synner. I'd personally love to see some further numbers, but I understand that it'd probably be a hassle.
That describes five out of the seven players in my group.
That describes the remaining two. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
|
Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 1st July 2025 - 12:54 PM |
Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.