 SR4 in play experience, very pleased Gm and players |
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 Mar 22 2006, 11:46 PM
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#76
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Grand Master of Run-Fu  Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178  |
I'm not an industry expert, and I don't have any real numbers. What I do know is that anything advertised at asle prices in big red letters on the main page is going to sell better than other products, especially within the first few days of release. Besides which, that includes *my* purchase of "On the Run"-- I just got it because I had enough affiliate credits, and it was on sale. I'll bet that it drops off almost as quickly. [Edit] Besides which, I haven't even started reading the damn thing, and already I hate it. I'm old fashioned enough to prefer hardcopy to monitors, and I've crashed my computer four times trying to print the damn thing out. Right now, I don't care if it's the greatest thing since sliced bread, I'm about ready to drop-kick the whole fricking thing across the room. I might be able to give it a fair reading later, but right now, it's just a screaming pile of digital dung to me.
After talking to the folks at my FLGS, Shadowrun isn't a hot seller here in Seattle. Gary's Games is probably the #1 game store around, and I think he's sold all of 2 copies since it came out. I don't know what the comparison is-- that might be really excellent, in the big picture-- but it just doesn't sound good to my inexpert eye. I do know that distributors don't typically keep numbers on retail sales, though. They just track how many have been shipped, and assume that they've been sold at the retail level. A better indicator would be how many special requests have gone out, but I don't have any way of getting to those numbers. As for people coming back... I've seen a number of people drop out of Shadowrun, or refuse to go to SR4, as I've seen new players come aboard. And once the shininess of a new edition wears off, that's when we see how well a system really holds up. You pointed that out quite correctly. I think-- no, I *know*-- that a lot of the "new and returning" players will drop off again before too long. How much of an improvement remains after that point is the true test. |
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Mar 23 2006, 12:08 AM
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#77
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Target Group: Members Posts: 17 Joined: 9-January 06 Member No.: 8,144 |
That's more of a computer issue than the PDF. I think you're anger is being directed at the wrong thing. As for one store being a representative sample, meh. Even if it is the "#1" [Edit] For instance in my area not very many copies have been sold either, but that's mainly cause D&D dominates, with a little bit of Exalted on the side. I think through just browsing the web I've heard more apprehension about CP v3 then I have any system. |
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Mar 23 2006, 12:16 AM
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#78
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
pdf rpg-books will be the reason for me buying a ebook reader now that the eink screens are going on market...
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Mar 23 2006, 12:22 AM
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#79
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
This isn't the only time it's happened, though. SR4 not only crashed my computer during an attempted printout, it managed to demolish my copy of Acrobat Reader. I took it to Kinko's, and it crashed *their* systems eight times. It ended up taking a print shop over three days to get it out, sending out only a few pages at a time. I was informed then that it had something to do with the "layering" in the SR4 pdf format; apparently it's highly detailed, which makes for nice, pretty graphics. However, it's impossible to flatten correctly, and makes printing a nightmare. I know I'm not the only one, either-- I've seen multiple complaints about the same thing on these boards. None of this has anything to do with the quality of the actual writing, of course. But if I can't actually *get* to the writing, it may as well be the worst pile of crap on the planet from my point of view. I'm certainly going to tell everyone I know to swear off FanPro pdf's until they start putting out printer-friendly versions; this is just ridiculous. |
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Mar 23 2006, 12:35 AM
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#80
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Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
Shit, man. I'm sorry to read that. We should have talked earlier.
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Mar 23 2006, 01:14 AM
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#81
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
Would you know how to fix this? I think I've gotten twelve error-free pages out of On the Run so far.
I know how angry I must sound, but try and see things from my point of view: I've bought something I'm dubious about; have wasted half a day, most of a black ink cartridge, and a sizeable chunk of a good-sized tree, and I've got less than 15 clear pages to show for it. I have every right to be totally pissed off right about now. I'm not about to start flaming or insulting anyone because I'm frustrated and angry; however, that doesn't mean I'm going to let this lie. Even if the writing is supremely excellent, all these problems severely reduce the quality of the book. This whole printing mess is torquing me off severely, and I think this makes for a really crappy product. |
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Mar 23 2006, 01:19 AM
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#82
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Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
Yeah... Sort of.
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Mar 23 2006, 02:20 AM
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#83
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Prime Runner Group: Retired Admins Posts: 3,929 Joined: 26-February 02 From: .ca Member No.: 51 |
Cain: Send me a mail to adam@shadowrunrpg.com with relevant information [OS, version of Acrobat Reader you're using, that sort of stuff] and we'll try and get it worked out. On The Run has been selling briskly at all of our vendors and I've yet to hear of any problems with it.
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Mar 23 2006, 02:47 AM
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#84
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 718 Joined: 10-September 05 From: Montevideo, in the elusive shadows of Latin America Member No.: 7,727 |
I think Cain has Gremlins (4)...
...maybe it's "Printer Bane" (pdfs) ...but we all know that printers are spawns of hell, just waiting to ruin your temperance when deadline day comes... Cheers, Max |
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Mar 23 2006, 02:56 AM
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#85
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Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
Nah. When SR4 originally came out a ton of people had problems with the PDF. If you do a search for "Photoshop" and my name going back 180+ days, you'll see what I did.
As for OTR... I'm surprised because a) the SR4 PDF was eventually fixed, and b) the subsequently released books have worked fine. |
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Mar 23 2006, 05:56 AM
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#86
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
I haven't bought any Fanpro pdf's since then-- the first time was bad enough, so I wouldn't know. I've only bought System Failure since, and I found it on sale on Ebay for cheaper than the pdf. Having Adam offer to help me on this really does make me feel better about it, though.
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Mar 23 2006, 07:47 AM
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#87
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Target Group: Members Posts: 89 Joined: 29-January 06 From: Orlando, Florida Member No.: 8,210 |
I fined it interesting that SR4 is not selling well in Seattle.
Down here in Orlando Florida two shipment sold like hot cakes and I had to wait to get my copy. I find it odd that sombody would fight so hard against SR4, its seems to me at least that somthing else is involved here. If I hated a game that much I would split and be off to the next one without a look back, it certainly would not be worth my time to stick around for somthing I am not playing. |
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Mar 23 2006, 08:57 AM
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#88
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,598 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Hong Kong Member No.: 4,253 |
The earliers copies of the PDF weren't very 'flat' (for example, all that silly page border art seemed to be a seperate layer, while this might have been nice if you could just banish it completely, you couldn't) this caused it to be a hellish memory hog, horribly slow, and all sorts of other mean and nasty things. The later versions of the pdf are much better.
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Mar 23 2006, 03:20 PM
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#89
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
Same in the Atlanta area. I had to keep tabs on the four closest gaming stores; I finally scored the second-to-last copy in the one store that didn't sell out within 48 hours.
Wholly agreed, but some people don't have the same good sense that you do, DJ. |
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Mar 23 2006, 05:16 PM
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#90
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Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
You misspelled "ironic." |
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Mar 23 2006, 07:34 PM
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#91
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
oh, there very much is something else at work, here. i don't hate the game. James doesn't hate the game. neither does Cain, or Critias, or any of the other people who post here with negative opinions of SR4. we hate the rules. i love SR. it's an interesting game--a unique game, or very nearly so. i love the setting, i love the atmosphere, i love the feel of the game. but i really, really hate the new rules because i feel it really, really alters all of that for the worse. as many faults as i find in the SR3 rules (and there are many), they work better--i feel--for the game than the SR4 rules. |
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Mar 23 2006, 07:45 PM
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#92
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,589 Joined: 28-November 05 Member No.: 8,019 |
What's wrong with the new rules that wasn't wrong in SR3?
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Mar 23 2006, 08:02 PM
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#93
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,590 Joined: 11-September 04 Member No.: 6,650 |
nope average joe is a 1st level commoner
4hp sorry 3 hp npcs don't get max hp for first dice |
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Mar 23 2006, 08:20 PM
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#94
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
I completely sympathize. That's how I felt about SR3, and that's why I ultimately stopped playing it. That's why you don't see me in the SR3 forums; I exist only here, in SR4. So as not to make this a "SR3 vs SR4" post, I'll relate an identical situation that I have with Star Wars. I'm of the generation that saw New Hope in the theatres as a little kid. The setting was awesome to my young mind and the Star Wars franchise was perhaps the biggest contributor to my eventual status as a "nerd." It was the first time I had seen the sci-fi genre presented in a cool way. As I grew up and became aware of RPGs, I naturally sought out a good Star Wars RPG. At last, I had my chance to interact within the setting in a more detailed way than slapping together little plastic lightsabers. I tried each new iteration of the tabletop game that I could find. A few years ago, I gave six months of my life to the (ultimately self-destructive) Star Wars: Galaxies MMORPG. But ya know, none of those games did it for me. I found their game mechanics lacking in ways that I just couldn't accept, so I eventually just stopped playing them. I still love the setting, and I still keep up with the fiction as best I can; but there hasn't been a game out there yet that I felt did the setting justice. So I've resigned myself to watching the movies and reading the books since that's what's most satisfying to me. Am I disappointed? Sure. Am I going to hang out on the SWG forums and gripe? Nope. I tried for a while (while I was still playing it), hoping for the longshot that it would prompt constructive change, but it predictably didn't. I had to give it a shot, at least, ya know? But I knew when to just let it go. So I moved on. Other fish in the sea, and all.
Then please continue to play SR3. If someone is holding a gun to your head demanding that you play SR4, wait until they go to the bathroom and quickly call 911. Providing feedback to the developers is very useful, but -- as I mentioned above with SWG -- at one point you've got to realize that even the most insightful critiques will eventually sound like background noise after a while. It's not that I think SR4 is the holiest of the holies or anything; it's just that I know getting indignant over a new edition is ultimately futile if there's a perfectly serviceable previous edition available for those who prefer it. And worst case? Just read the novels and keep hoping for the movie. |
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Mar 23 2006, 09:09 PM
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#95
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
*shrug* if people weren't interested in the question of how well SR4 works as a system, i wouldn't post about it. it's not like i--or anyone else who's shown a concrete dislike for SR4--is starting these topics. we're just replying to them.
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Mar 23 2006, 09:20 PM
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#96
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,026 Joined: 23-November 05 From: Seattle (Really!) Member No.: 7,996 |
They must have sold more than that, or I account for 100% of the sales. :) |
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Mar 23 2006, 09:23 PM
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#97
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 135 Joined: 27-February 06 Member No.: 8,313 |
Here in Indianapolis it flew off the shelves. I didn't even see the first printing, and I check on the local stores about once a week. My friend and I picked up two copies of the second printing, but I think they're out of that now, too. |
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Mar 23 2006, 09:27 PM
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#98
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Target Group: Members Posts: 89 Joined: 29-January 06 From: Orlando, Florida Member No.: 8,210 |
Haha ya, I should have used ironic, it fits so well. That and I love the words Poetic Justice but I don't get to use it often.
My main point is that I love the Karma that Shadowrun has in general, there is no other game I feel that has that certain feel it has. I love the by play from runner points of view that go along with the rules, it really adds to the feel. But just like the other SR rules, there are some SR4 rules I didnt like right of the bat. After checking it out, I saw what didnt work and just changed it. The combat formula was the biggest flaw I found. So I went and changed it so that Armor, AP and Power effects on ammo work well together now. Due to how the system is made, it was very easy to make other changes as well and just start playing. (like lvls, I prefer 8 as a skill cap with +3 for legendary) It even tells you to change what ever rules that feel need to be changed to suit your purposes. So thats my point, if you don't like the game, its one thing to state what you don't like about it and decide not to play it or to post the changes you made to the game to make it playable in your opinion for others to view Its another to fight so hard against a system you are not playing, it would seem show a unatural amount of emotional investment that would seem to go beyond just plain dislike for a system. To do a quick profile, I would say that it would seem to me that alot of emotion of expectation was put into the game and when it game out and did not meet up to your standards, it turned to hatered. Sorta like a drunk guy hitting on a chick and when she turns him down he calls her a bitch. For at this point, the argument certainly feels more about the person then it does the game system. |
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Mar 23 2006, 09:32 PM
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#99
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
thank-you for that, uh, insightful... insight? like i said, if people weren't interested in the questions, i wouldn't be here providing my answers. when people stop posting about it, so will i.
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Mar 23 2006, 09:33 PM
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#100
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Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
You mean in spite of the numerous attempts to statistically eviscerate the rules as flawed?
Hm... Okay. |
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