 Idiot's Guide to the Matrix 2.0 |
  |
 Mar 26 2006, 07:01 PM
Post
#101
|
|||||
|
Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 135 Joined: 27-February 06 Member No.: 8,313  |
Edit: Of course, you meant ten programs, and not 20. All right, I think that makes it conclusive that the chain effect doesn't happen (which is good), and that the penalty is only based on initial System. So you can't crash your comm by running just a handful over its base System. However, the rules do flat-out say that System is limited by Response, and that program ratings are limited by system. You may only be looking at a -1 penalty, but it still reduces System and program ratings. As far as the XP analogy, when you've exceeded your capabilities, you programs become not only slower, but also worse. You're more likely to see them crash, to find visual artifacts show up, and to be just unable to use them at full effectiveness. I don't know how helpful real-world analogies are to this sort of thing, but in this case they could go either way. |
||||
 |
 
|
||||
|
Mar 27 2006, 03:12 PM
Post
#102
|
|||||
|
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
Late response on my part. I had thought about that, and phrased it like this:
I figure if at least a portion of those interrelated questions are answered, we'll have something potentially useful to work with. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Mar 27 2006, 04:01 PM
Post
#103
|
|||||||||
|
Technomancer Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,638 Joined: 2-October 02 From: Champaign, IL Member No.: 3,374 |
That's the way I've always run it. I've been sifting through all of the other threads I missed over the weekend so far, so let me get back to this one over lunch.
That's the way I've been playing it so far.
Actually, since this host is specifically designed to do nothing but detect and detain hackers until security can arrive, those agents are running. As stated above, I've been running it that agents are 1 program with a payload of other programs. The payload programs don't count towards the much maligned system/response limitations as they are run within the agent program. As for data bomb and encryption, I've been playing it that the programs must be loaded and running for you to receive the benefits of those programs. This, of course, provides the savvy player the opportunity of crashing the programs rather than dealing with decryption of defusing actions. However, I think that any host worth its salt will pretty quickly fire an alert if it's programs start crashing.
Of course there's a way to load a program without filling th hardware --- use them in agents. Again, to me SR does not have to recreate the realities of computer science. I'm a programmer by trade so I understand what you're saying, but I don't think the game benefits from that level of realism. If the agent's payload counted against the system's ratings, then hosts would be crippled by the system/response limitations, even with the more friendly non-cascading interpretation of that limitation. Thus, to avoid the SR equivalent of a "DOS" attack where hackers simply go to a host, upload 40 agents to it and make them run on the host's system dropping it's system and response probably to 1 leaving you free to do what you like while your agents paint graffiti on the host's virtual walls. @Aku The colors are pretty eye-bleeding on my monitors as well. The green and red in particular. Honestly, I'd prefer that you keep it to orange = out of character, yellow = in character so that our posts have the same color scheme. Simplicity and all that..... As for the @everyone posts, I'd say that the Aku character is not aware of most of the mechanical (orange) posts but the "in-character" (yellow) posts are fair game. Does that answer your question? I'm seeing 9 porgrams (analyze, armor, biofeedback filter, exploit, battlecat, boomer, spyman (and counterpart), and fido). With a system of 6, this means you at a -1 to response for the purposes of matrix initiative (balanced by your choice of hot sim) but this also limits your system to 5 and your programs will, thus, also run at 5. While not really a major problem, I'll need you to re-roll your hacking on the fly attempt. As promised, now that Aku has told me that he's looking for a basic user access to the system and intends on relying on his hacking abilities to get him by as quickly as possible, I'll let you know what security and administrative access would have done on the chokepoint host. In general, I assume that security access provides easier access to the security logs which could be edited following the hacker's activities to remove a record of them. On this host, security access wouldn't have gotten Aku much more than that, as this system isn't set up to do anything other than stop hackers. However, Admin access to this system also provides information about the host at the other end of the chokepoint's gauntlet. This information is the physical location and address of that node. Thus, admin access could have saved one operation after logging in at the expense of potentially not getting in at all. |
||||||||
|
|
|
||||||||
|
Mar 27 2006, 04:15 PM
Post
#104
|
|
|
Running, running, running Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,220 Joined: 18-October 04 From: North Carolina Member No.: 6,769 |
Actually, you forgot about stealth and spoof, which are always loaded, for me, however, in lieu of lossing the response, i'm going to drop..... SpyBuddy, because right now it's kinda of redundent, in favor of a reality filter, which, if successful weill bring me back up to a response 6, and if unsuccessful, will drop me to a response 4 (EEK!)
[ Spoiler ] EEK! things are not looking very good heh... |
|
|
|
|
Mar 27 2006, 04:27 PM
Post
#105
|
|
|
Technomancer Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,638 Joined: 2-October 02 From: Champaign, IL Member No.: 3,374 |
What roll was that? Reality filter or hacking on the fly? Either way, did you add you skill (or for reality filter, response) into that pool?
|
|
|
|
|
Mar 27 2006, 04:46 PM
Post
#106
|
|
|
panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
why put the rolls in spoilers? put them as orange text and be done with it...
|
|
|
|
|
Mar 27 2006, 04:52 PM
Post
#107
|
|
|
Running, running, running Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,220 Joined: 18-October 04 From: North Carolina Member No.: 6,769 |
That was for reality filter, and yes, it was response 5, reality filter 6
|
|
|
|
|
Mar 27 2006, 05:01 PM
Post
#108
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 135 Joined: 27-February 06 Member No.: 8,313 |
I run it that you need to have Encrypt active to encrypt communications, but that for data files you only need to activate it, encrypt, and then deactivate it. I require Data Bombs to be active, though, if only so that my runners don't have bombs all over their PANs, on every device and file. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Mar 27 2006, 05:06 PM
Post
#109
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 515 Joined: 19-January 04 Member No.: 5,992 |
Quick sidetrack about the program thing: I noticed that he's got so many on there that he's dropping ratings on stuff.
Does the drop only come about from having active programs on your comm, or from having them on there at all? If so, wouldn't it make more sense to only leave so many programs active and turn them on and off as need be, in order to keep your ratings up? |
|
|
|
|
Mar 27 2006, 05:17 PM
Post
#110
|
|
|
panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
it takes a complex action to load a new program...
however, i cant find a action to shut a program down :P and the drop in response comes from active programs (and agents/ice) only... |
|
|
|
|
Mar 27 2006, 05:19 PM
Post
#111
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 515 Joined: 19-January 04 Member No.: 5,992 |
That doesn't seem too bad, considering you're getting more IPs than normal when doing this kind of stuff. I figure that shutting down a program should be a free or a simple.
|
|
|
|
|
Mar 27 2006, 05:21 PM
Post
#112
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 135 Joined: 27-February 06 Member No.: 8,313 |
You can store as many programs as you like without affecting performance but, as hobgoblin pointed out, it takes precious time to load the new ones later. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Mar 27 2006, 05:22 PM
Post
#113
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 207 Joined: 3-November 05 From: KCMO Member No.: 7,922 |
Just to drop my 2 :nuyen: in on the TM debate....
What exactly is the point of hacking a TM? I understand that someone might try, thinking the TM was a standard comm, but if you find out that you CAN, what are you going to do with that? TM's have no data storage, no running programs to crash, nada. I thought I had read in the old Hacking & Rigging sticky that TM's can only be crashed, not hacked...cause there's nothing TO hack, only a brain that works in undefined ways. Every TM carries something to store data (& broadcast SIN, etc info as needed), so you can hack THAT. I'd bet you can hack any cyber, or smartgun the TM has, but I'm fairly confident that you cannot hack the TM. I don't think TM's can receive calls. Mine is played that if somebody needs her, they drop an IM into a service she monitors. She can call out of her head, folks can't call in. Also, when she calls out, we play it like the screen shows whatever she wants it to show.... As for TMs jacking out, why would they? The book indicates that TMs get testy when they are unable to connect. Since AR can be up while interacting with other characters, I have been playing like being in the Matrix is a drug, or that being out & away from the Matrix is like an allergy or phobia. Finally, as for signature, iirc, the book indicates that other TMs can recognize TM signatures in the Matrix, implying that regular hackers, seeing that signature, will only see garbage. TMs can get systems to let them in, but when the security hacker tries to see who got in, the log will only show a mess. (I don't have my book handy right now. Some of this info may have come from the previously mentioned sticky.) Until more complete canon info is released, I agree that the interpretations are many. However, I believe that treating TMs like organic commlinks is a little too simplistic. What they do SEEMS to work like an organic comm, but the specifics are in no way the same. (Sorry for the uber-long post. I've been away for a bit & had to catch up.) |
|
|
|
|
Mar 27 2006, 05:22 PM
Post
#114
|
|||
|
panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
it was free in SR3 and earlyer so free should be fitting... another question is: can one start or stop more then one program/agent pr action? |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Mar 27 2006, 05:31 PM
Post
#115
|
|||||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 327 Joined: 28-January 06 Member No.: 8,209 |
According to the RAW, "Deactivate a Program or Agent" is a simple action relevant to Matrix actions, so I inflict that upon my poor hacker while he's hacking. Then again, he wasn't designed as a hacker (he kinda fell into it), so I have yet to see him operating when he HASN'T had his response reduced by program load; he's upgrading it now to take care of that problem. :-P As for loading/killing multiple programs, my interpretation is "no". I'd let him "kill all" as a simple, but other than that, I force him to take simple and complex actions per program. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Mar 27 2006, 05:33 PM
Post
#116
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 515 Joined: 19-January 04 Member No.: 5,992 |
Killing all programs? Wouldn't that just be a straight-up reboot?
|
|
|
|
|
Mar 27 2006, 05:42 PM
Post
#117
|
|||
|
panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
crap! i could have sworn i read that list several times but i didnt spot that simple action :( |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Mar 27 2006, 10:12 PM
Post
#118
|
|||
|
Technomancer Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,638 Joined: 2-October 02 From: Champaign, IL Member No.: 3,374 |
@Aku Ah! I understand, there were line breaks in there. I saw three different rolls, two of five dice and one of one and couldn't figure out what you were trying to tell me. I feel you'd have to roll your Reality Filter test after you break into the host, but since you'd only end up losing 1 die from each roll made above, you would still end up with 7 hits after two intervals, beating the System's Firewall of 6. Thus, re-rolling the old rolls to break-in doesn't really matter. Also, since your modified System rating is, for the moment, 5 and System caps program ratings, the roll should have been - unless I'm missing something, response 5 + reality filter 5. If you could edit the old rolls to remove one die from all of them (just get rid of a miss so that we can move on past the hacking attempt) for thread consistency I'd appreciate it. As Aku attempts to hack into the system, the system -- as per the rules on p. 221 -- gets an extended test with a threshold of Aku's stealth program to try and detect him. The system rolls Analyze + Firewall, a total of 11 dice. We know from Aku's rolls above that he was about to hack into the system in two intervals. The host rolls the following against a threshold of 5, the current modified rating of Aku's Stealth program. 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 3, 4, 4, 5, 6 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 4, 4, 6, 6 Luckily, the host doesn't quite get to the threshold of 5 before Aku successfully hacks himself access to the system. Next, his Reality Filter test pits the hacker's Response + Reality Filter vs. the host's System + Response. Aku's roll above resulted in only two hits. I roll 12 dice (System and Response of 6): 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 4, 4, 6, 6, 6 and gets 3 hits. This is bad for Aku, as a failed Reality Filter test means that not only is he at -1 Response for the number of programs he's currently running, he's also down -1 for the failed test. This puts his response at 4, and a modified System and Program cap of 4 as well. Plus, by the rules on p. 59 under Trying Again mean that if he wants to try and re-apply his reality filter he can do so, but he's at a -2 dice pool modification for his previous failure. Want to try again Aku? |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Mar 28 2006, 04:51 PM
Post
#119
|
|
|
Running, running, running Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,220 Joined: 18-October 04 From: North Carolina Member No.: 6,769 |
hmmm, would that be a cummaltive -3, for the reality filter failing the first time?
|
|
|
|
|
Mar 28 2006, 05:21 PM
Post
#120
|
|
|
Technomancer Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,638 Joined: 2-October 02 From: Champaign, IL Member No.: 3,374 |
Yes, your total modification would be -1 for too many programs, -1 for failed reality filter, -2 for trying again. Alternatively, you can suck the -2 for the programs and the failed reality filter to avoid a potential -3 for programs and 2 failed reality filters.
'Course, you could argue that the reality filter failure modification doesn't stack, but then the only way a reality filter fails to work is if you continue to fail the test until you're out of dice pool (and edge if you roll long-shots) which I don't think I like. |
|
|
|
|
Mar 30 2006, 12:22 PM
Post
#121
|
|
|
Running, running, running Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,220 Joined: 18-October 04 From: North Carolina Member No.: 6,769 |
i havnt forgotten i'm just still debating how i wanna go hehe, almost as important as a real game, eh?
|
|
|
|
|
Mar 30 2006, 02:19 PM
Post
#122
|
|
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 15 Joined: 7-March 06 Member No.: 8,341 |
I think running this thread like a PBeM is really handicapping its usefulness. Dashifen, I'd just like to suggest that it might be more streamlined if you just ran an NPC hacker through his paces. Things would definitely progress a little qjuicker that way. Just a suggestion...but thanks to both you and Aku for the work you're putting into this...
|
|
|
|
|
Mar 30 2006, 02:50 PM
Post
#123
|
|
|
panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
check the old thread that synner started. it to had the problem of time between posts...
|
|
|
|
|
Mar 30 2006, 04:55 PM
Post
#124
|
|
|
Technomancer Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,638 Joined: 2-October 02 From: Champaign, IL Member No.: 3,374 |
@JustSix
Well, I could just write an Idiot's Guide to the Matrix 2.0 in word and host it, but that wouldn't allow for the conversations and questions in between the posts of the tutorial. Since I personally feel that these questions and conversations (i.e. the technomancer node discussion) are at least as important as the tutorial, I'd rather keep it in this format. At the end of each scenario, I will mark up the tutorial information for the web and host it at my SR site for posterity. Further, if I simply write a document it gives the impression that I'm some form of authority in this area. Sure, I drove to Gen Con Indy last year to get my copy of the first printing, but that didn't give me much extra time in front of the e-book release. Thus, I'm in the same boat as you all, I just think I've got a good understanding of the rules and the willingness to interpret and be flexible about my decisions. Thus, because of the inherint flexibility of the Matrix 2.0, I think allowing others to comment or contradict my decisions is valuable to the community at large, even if things move a little slowly. @Aku I wouldn't worry about things too much. Besides, if you die horribly, it'll only show the dangers of assaulting highly defended nodes. Plus, I think we've illustrated how the response vs. number of programs question can quickly spiral out of control, too. |
|
|
|
|
Mar 30 2006, 11:30 PM
Post
#125
|
|
|
Running, running, running Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,220 Joined: 18-October 04 From: North Carolina Member No.: 6,769 |
i think i'm going to stick with the penelty, as is, because i dont think i'll score much better the second time, but now i've forgotten what step we're at. With the chances to my dice pool, i need to re-adjust my hacking attempt, correct?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 8th January 2025 - 06:43 PM |
Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.