 Idiot's Guide to the Matrix 2.0 |
  |
 May 4 2006, 03:00 PM
Post
#201
|
|
|
Target  Group: Members Posts: 23 Joined: 16-February 06 Member No.: 8,272  |
Medic test seems to be like a healing test to me, therefore wound modifier would apply since Aku is performing the healing.
In the book, it just says "for every 3 boxes of damage, -1 wound modifier applies". I was thinking along the same line as Aku before where he wouldn't take any modifier until he's reached 3 boxes of damage. However, looking at the condition monitor part of the character record sheet on page 350 has changed my mind. I think Dashifen is right. A character receives -1 wound modifier for 1-3 boxes of damage, -2 for 4-6, etc. Edit: wrong page number, it should be 350 |
 |
 
|
|
May 4 2006, 06:55 PM
Post
#202
|
|||||
|
Technomancer Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,638 Joined: 2-October 02 From: Champaign, IL Member No.: 3,374 |
That is correct. However, if you used Hacking to get into the system then you are not a legitimate user. I think this is where we disagree. To me, the use of the Hacking skill represents the fact that you're working to fool a system into thinking that you're legitimate when, in truth, you're anything but. If you have to make a Hacking test to break into a system, then that system is going to use its security against you, even if due to luck or skill those security measures fall short as they seem to have done vs. Aku in this example. However, if you're sitting down at Mr. Wageslave's desk and using his login/password or biometrics to gain legitimate access to the system then you would not have to deal with the security of said system. Thus, Mr. Wageslave doesn't have to navigate the chokepoint every time they access the system. 'Course, I could say that they do have to. Every morning when I sit down at my computer I have to log into the machine and then set up a VPN connection to the network since I use a wireless card for access rather than a wired one. Therefore, I do -- from a certain point of view -- have to deal with the security of the system despite being a legitimate user.
False. If Aku had penetrated the building, and use a legitimate access method to use a WageSlave terminal, then there'd be no (or little) security. However, he didn't do this. He's using his hacking skills to break into the system and, as I stated above, he therefore deals with the security. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
May 4 2006, 06:58 PM
Post
#203
|
|||
|
Technomancer Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,638 Joined: 2-October 02 From: Champaign, IL Member No.: 3,374 |
That's been my understanding from the get go, and seemed to be the consensus around here as well. Plus, it makes the High Pain Tolerance Quality and some 'ware (i.e. Damage Compensators) superfluous to the game if there isn't a penalty on the first box of damage. Hell, High Pain Tolerance can only be purchased for three boxes, so if you didn't have a -1 to you dice pools while at 1 box of damage, the first two levels of High Pain Tolerance would be wasted BP. ________________ Anyway back to the tutorial: I've got bad news. A few posts back I mentioned that I'd be going away for two weeks. Well, those two weeks are upon us. I'll be around tomorrow perhaps, but after that I won't be back until May 19th. At that time, we'll continue this tutorial, so don't forget to Track this topic, if you're interested in it, so that when I get back you'll see the thread's activity start up again. I had intended, as indicated by posts above, to post information about the new node that Aku is hacking, but it seems to me that this might be a good way to start out the second half of this tutorial once I get back from vacation. Hope you all hang in there while I'm away! |
||
|
|
|
||
|
May 4 2006, 07:01 PM
Post
#204
|
|
|
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,590 Joined: 11-September 04 Member No.: 6,650 |
but when in the system he used his skills to get thhe REAL ID and password of the legitimate user
relogging in with that UserID |
|
|
|
|
May 4 2006, 07:07 PM
Post
#205
|
|
|
Technomancer Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,638 Joined: 2-October 02 From: Champaign, IL Member No.: 3,374 |
I don't recall him doing that. Had he done so, and penetrated the building, then I'd consider removing the security. However, he'd still be limited by the access controls of the user that whose account he appropriated. Thus, he still may have to hack his way to a greater access level and at that point, the security would start to come back.
|
|
|
|
|
May 4 2006, 07:11 PM
Post
#206
|
|
|
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,590 Joined: 11-September 04 Member No.: 6,650 |
um reread the second paragraph of his you quoted
And the simple fact is that if that account had core datastore access of any kind I can go into the core datastore before going back into hack mode, ignoring the chokepoint Oh and -1 foe every full three boxes does not invalidate high pain tol 2 as in 4th pain tol reduces the number of evvective boxes you have for determining wound penalties so if you have 4 boxes and high pain tol 2, you have 2 boxes of damage |
|
|
|
|
May 4 2006, 07:15 PM
Post
#207
|
|||
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 34 Joined: 3-May 06 Member No.: 8,522 |
I kinda remember reading in one of your posts that Aku was supposed to be INTO the building...but I can't find it anymore. Well...then my critic doesn't stand at all, since Aku IS breaking into the system from outside! :P |
||
|
|
|
||
|
May 4 2006, 07:15 PM
Post
#208
|
|
|
Technomancer Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,638 Joined: 2-October 02 From: Champaign, IL Member No.: 3,374 |
True, in the hypothetical situation presented by Hasimir, the person could hack in, determine a valid access method, log out and then re-log in using the valid code. Using the old Validate utility in SR3 was basically standard operating procedure for most of my Deckers in a similar fashion.
Regardless, however, I don't remember Aku saying that he was going to try and perform a similar maneuver to this. If he intended to act in this way, then I misunderstood, but it's probably buried so far back in the tutorial that it's not worth retrofitting the entire thread to make up for the mistake. |
|
|
|
|
May 4 2006, 07:16 PM
Post
#209
|
|
|
Technomancer Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,638 Joined: 2-October 02 From: Champaign, IL Member No.: 3,374 |
I think I recall, though I don't have the moment to look for it now, that Aku was in the building, but he never made the effort to find a legitimate access method. I honestly don't recall at the moment.
|
|
|
|
|
May 4 2006, 07:49 PM
Post
#210
|
|||||
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 34 Joined: 3-May 06 Member No.: 8,522 |
No problem ;)
He ddidn't, and even if he did...he can't. INSIDE the building you have your hands on a personal terminal that could contain the account data you need. OUTSIDE the building you have to ENTER the network (getting past the "security" node where he is now), roam around to FIND a personal terminal and THEN you can search for the account data stored there. He is outside...so no problem ^_^ |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
May 5 2006, 12:38 PM
Post
#211
|
|
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
To my understanding, you ARE a legitemate user when you hacked in.
Just consider: - You have to do computer/hacking tests, everytime you do something. Accounts do not have anything to do with it. If you want to alter a file, you have to make a computer+edit test. Normally editing something is so easy that you do not have to roll, but if you want to do something complex you have to do an edit test, no mater what your acces rights are. - Imagine you have hacked yourself in with administrator rights. You still have to do computer tests, for everything you do. So what is the difference between hacking in with admin rights or without. The answer is simple: When you do something that is within your permissions, you are not checked, the system does not check against your stealth. If you do something that is not within your permissions, you are checked. The same goes for normal user and security acess rights. Thats why you should not be checked (or in other words, you could be checked, but you have valid user rights for this session and can never be detected as false) when you do something that is in your permission range. Furthermore I would subdivide nodes into "devices" and "hosts". It is extremely silly to think that a full blown matrix host would have the processing power of a mere comlink. Thus I would rule, that "devices" (comlink and everything else that does not have a bigger computer behind it) are affected by response "degradation", but hosts are not. That solves the DOS attack. IC would have to be restricted by common sense (as it was in SR3), maybe with some traffic arguments to make it reasonable (high traffic nodes have less IC and are less secure, and vice versa). Furthermore a host can maintain alsmost infinite subscriptions (or matrix cafes wouldnt be possible). |
|
|
|
|
May 5 2006, 01:09 PM
Post
#212
|
|
|
Technomancer Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,638 Joined: 2-October 02 From: Champaign, IL Member No.: 3,374 |
I agree that you can be a legitimate user for some tasks after hacking in. For example, when I gave Aku a free perception on the data he intercepted I didn't bother to make him roll because, as a user of the system, he'd be able to take a peak at what's going. However, if he tried to break the encryption, that would have been above his user level clearance and, thus, the security would have analyzed him. It's a case by case thing based on the user level of the account that's hacked.
The hard part is finding limitations on the Admin level of access...... |
|
|
|
|
May 5 2006, 01:43 PM
Post
#213
|
|
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
Sure, no problems with that. I just wouldnt have allowed the analyze stuff by the IC, after sucessfully hacking in. I would only allow further analyze actions when the hacker performs actions which are not allowed (like defusing the data bomb).
Furthermore I would only allow one such test, per action. Normally, if you don't find a virus, you wont find it by re-running the program. The chances that a maxed node (12 dice) finds a maxed hacker (6 stealth) are pretty high anyway (17%). |
|
|
|
|
May 5 2006, 01:58 PM
Post
#214
|
|
|
Technomancer Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,638 Joined: 2-October 02 From: Champaign, IL Member No.: 3,374 |
True ... the analysis was for the icon on the host, not the hacking. Walking a fine line, I know, but I wanted to try and actually stop him in the chokepoint ... it being a chokepoint and all ;)
|
|
|
|
|
May 5 2006, 05:13 PM
Post
#215
|
|
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 34 Joined: 3-May 06 Member No.: 8,522 |
Actually the only "bad looks" Aku got from the system where: 1) the extended Firewall+Analyze test while he was trying to hack in 2) an automatic Pilot+Analyze test from each agent...not because "he was hacking" but simply because "he was there". These agents were configured to check upon ALL the traffic in the node, be it legit or not, internal or external. This takes just a minimal toll on the traffic because any legit user with a "real" account would have turned up FINE no matter how many hits the Agets scored...with no need for a Hack+Stealth test on the User's part. |
|
|
|
|
May 5 2006, 06:27 PM
Post
#216
|
|||
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
I say that it will turn up fine, no matter how many hits the agents score, because Aku had valid user acess rights. When you hack in with a certain oermission category, you HAVE these rights, they are valid for the session. What good would an admin acess do, if ou would be analyzed all the time anyway? What would be the difference to a normal user acess (ok, you have to use hack+edit, instead of computer+edit . . . what a difference . . .) ? Furthermore I would rule to restrict the system (including IC/agents) to one analyze test (per invalid action), because of balancing reasons. Invent some fluff about traffic to cover that up if you need to. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
May 5 2006, 06:41 PM
Post
#217
|
|||||
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 24 Joined: 20-December 05 Member No.: 8,083 |
My impression is that Aku doesn't HAVE valid user rights, he is FAKING valid user rights. For any of the commands which are within the user rights, he rolls computer + program because he has faked the system into believing he is a user. For commands outside his user scope, he rolls hacking + program to convince the system it is within his rights. The IC which scanned him upon entry are programmed to scan everyone who comes in. They are programmed verify that the user that they just scanned is who they say they are, thus Aku needs to roll again to fake out these IC just as he faked out the firewall. In other words, the IC act a lot like a secondary firewall, only they trigger an alert instead of keeping you out of the node. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
May 5 2006, 07:18 PM
Post
#218
|
|||
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
Tell me then please, what admin access is for, if you only switch computer with hacking skill and the rest stays the same? What is the advantage of faking admin acess? Furthermore, I rule out this whole agent scanning stsuff, because of balancing reasons. It is making hacking virtually impossible. Aku was a maxed out hacker, and he was hacking a system with 11 dice for node detection (12 is max), and 2 times 10 dice for this custom agent detection. The chances for beeing detected with stealth 6 by 11 dice is 12% on one roll and 79% in two rolls. That is already pretty much impossible to achieve. There is no need to further unbalance things by adding these extra 10 dice anlayzers, that analayze verytime. The chance to detect a stealth 6 with 11 dice (one time roll), and adittional 10 dice and 10 dice are 25% percent (as opposed to 12% with only 11 dice). So after Hacking in with 2 tries (Chances of a 12 dice hacker to do it in one try are only 12% as we know) and performing one action a stealth 6 guy has a chance of 82% of being detected. This is already a suicide mission. I would not even consider something if I do not have at least 50% chance of achieving it. But the two additional 10 dice analyzers turn this suicide mission into a certain failure: They turn the 12% (which is just bearable) chance of being detected each time an illegal action is performed to killing 60%. (The chances to lose, not draw, for example a 10vs10 test are somewhere arround 35%) And this is a maxed hacker. The hacker which has to fight against systems with analyzing IC can as well go home. BTW: Aku had only a stealth of 5. His chance of being detected for hacking in and doing one action were: 97,3% SO please game masters, do not allow analyzing IC for game balancing reasons. Deploying constantly analyzing IC is killing every hack attempt. If you want to make hacking impossible, you can do it. But if you want to make hacking possible and plausible, you better invent some fluff and justify that there can only be ONE analyze attempt per illegal action. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
May 5 2006, 08:01 PM
Post
#219
|
|||||||||||
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 24 Joined: 20-December 05 Member No.: 8,083 |
According to your comment:
It doesn’t matter what account permissions you hack, they are all valid logons so they don't get scanned. Thus I do not see what the differences between user and admin accounts have to do with this discussion. Your point does not provide any special benefits to admin that do not get applied to users. However, since you asked, the biggest differences in the mechanics are where you roll the hacking skill vs. were you roll the computer skill. Most other differences would depend on the GM, for example Dashifen made the following statement on March 27th:
There is nothing wrong with holding that opinion. If that is how you want to run things, then go for it. My opinion on this is that the IC only get to scan you a few times. To keep with the point of this thread, Aku was only scanned by the IC once (when he first logged in). He did not get scanned again for uploading his agent, he did not get scanned again for tying to disarm the door, and he did not get scanned again for using a medic utility. The idea is that the IC would periodically scan, but periodically is a rough term and should be left up to the choice of the GM. Don’t forget that this is a choke point designed for security. Free roaming IC would not be on every node. Work nodes, for example, would potentially have many users on and they would be on for long times. I could see no roaming IC on such a node, and if there were such IC on the node, maybe there is a chance they never get around to scanning you for one reason or another. |
||||||||||
|
|
|
||||||||||
|
May 5 2006, 08:09 PM
Post
#220
|
|
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
I still think the main difference is that you do not get scanned by the host for legal actions (actions that are allowed by the account permissions). The difference between hacking+skill and computer+skill is nonexistant. The additional information suggested by Daishen is not enough for the risk.
As admins have rights for everything, they would never get scanned by the host. On the other hand, faking an admin account on an all 6 host is almost impossible. You would have to get 12 hits before the system got 6 (stealth) hits. |
|
|
|
|
May 5 2006, 08:19 PM
Post
#221
|
|||
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 24 Joined: 20-December 05 Member No.: 8,083 |
I completely agree with this statement. It feels like the computer skill/hacking skill break out was done just go give deckers two skills that they have to raise. I also agree that the Admin account does not have enough benefits to make it worth it. Perhaps if actions which are in the computer skill/hacker skill limbo were given a +1 or +2 threshold for using the hacking skill, then the admin account would be more desirable without being overpowered. However, I feel that this discussion is for another thread and is not related to active IC scanning icons as additional security. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
May 5 2006, 08:36 PM
Post
#222
|
|
|
panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
ugh scratch that post. my brain must have been in a diffrent existence...
|
|
|
|
|
May 5 2006, 08:39 PM
Post
#223
|
|||
|
Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
On the fly only. Getting root access in full VR going slow takes some hours, but is almost certainly secure. On the other hand, every non-agressive test in the book concerning equipment requires Computer... not having it is a bad idea. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
May 5 2006, 11:56 PM
Post
#224
|
|||
|
Running, running, running Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,220 Joined: 18-October 04 From: North Carolina Member No.: 6,769 |
Umm, is there supposed to be an if in this statement? or did i mis-write my text above? i actually have a stealth of 6, skill of 5, but due to dice penelties, only rolled 9 dice (i think) but in either case my stealth is 6 As for differences in access levels, i definately think it's going to be up to the GM to make beleiveable access privilages, but i do think that everything would be logged, and on sight security might pop up if the same set of actions came up from the same admin account. However, i also think that having user level access and doing dasterdly deeds might be more... "believable" than an admin account... there are only os many admin/security accounts within a given corp, and the chances of all of those people knowing most, if not all of the people with the same privilages are high, and i would suspect that for 1 location nodes, the addition of a new account with those privilages would set up a flag faster than a new user level. Also, i remember being told that i was going to be on site for this, and i thought i had "buddies" in the meat world, protecting me (which is what prompted my response of getting my team fragged because i'm sitting in a chair for 5 hours try to not get detected) i still think it would be dangerous either with or without a team (probably more-so without, because now i'm just a guy in an office that may or may not look like i belong in the chair im sitting in...) |
||
|
|
|
||
|
May 6 2006, 12:13 AM
Post
#225
|
|||
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
True, but as soon as you have a tiered network, you will have to hack the second row on the fly, as you will have to be in the first node to access the second. Sitting arround there for two hours might not be a good idea . . . |
||
|
|
|
||
|
|
Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 8th January 2025 - 06:28 PM |
Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.