 Idiot's Guide to the Matrix 2.0 |
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 Mar 23 2006, 01:28 AM
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#26
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 801 Joined: 13-March 06 Member No.: 8,374  |
Um, Technomancer's minds are not nodes. They are PERSONAS. There is a key difference there. Though they have have the stats of a commlink, they do not have any storage or a PAN. Ergo, their minds cannot be "hacked," and you cannot do any of the things listed bellow, which can only be done to nodes and networks. |
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Mar 23 2006, 01:37 AM
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#27
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
ah, ok then... so since it's not a node, the firewall attribute is pretty much just used for cybercombat then, right?
that does make more sense... i knew it was just a persona, guess i just never thought of the difference between a persona and a node =P so then, another question: is the technomancer's persona always found near their meatbod, or is the persona able to be on the other side of the world (naturally this assumes an adequate wireless connection to the other side of the world). ie, if you have a technomancer's persona as the center of a PAN, and the techno's persona is elsewhere, can you hack into their PAN? i mean, i suppose you could spoof it, but otherwise, i mean... |
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Mar 23 2006, 02:10 AM
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#28
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 327 Joined: 28-January 06 Member No.: 8,209 |
I'd just flat-out say "no, you can't hack a technomancer".
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Mar 23 2006, 02:30 AM
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#29
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 801 Joined: 13-March 06 Member No.: 8,374 |
Yeah, firewall is just for combat purposes. The persona can go anywhere a regular persona could; that is to say anywhere in the Matrix. doesn't matter iif its right next door or 3 continents away, so long as the node/device is linked to the matrix. For a Technomancer to have a PAN, they would have to have a commlink pretty much, in which case the System, firewall, response and signal of the commlink would be used. Think of it this way. A node is like a website. a PAN is like a personal webpage and email account, cell phone and PDA all rolled into one. Your commlink is like a computer with a server hosting the PAN. The persona is like a mouse, keyboard, moniter and webrower; they are the tools that let you interact with the webpage/nodes. The Matrix is like the internet. Any clearer? |
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Mar 23 2006, 02:34 AM
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#30
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
hmmm... you subscribe things to your persona, not to your commlink though, i'm pretty sure. so technomancers should be capable of being the center of their own PAN.
anyways, i would like to clarify, basically i was asking if there was always something at the body of the technomancer to be hacked... not necessarily that the persona couldn't leave, but rather that there would always be something at the body =P however, since the only thing at the body would be the data storage i suppose, the way to hack a technomancer's data storage is using electronic warfare type actions. since you can't hack their persona, that is. |
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Mar 23 2006, 03:16 AM
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#31
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 801 Joined: 13-March 06 Member No.: 8,374 |
The analogy I gave above does not work with technomancers. They break the rules some. No technomancers cannot be hacked. They have no data storage in their bodies. It specifically says this in the rulebook. any datastorage must be done on an external device. |
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Mar 23 2006, 04:08 AM
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#32
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 147 Joined: 27-February 06 From: Lost in Time Member No.: 8,312 |
All Technomacers have commlinks... Their commlinks are just organic. Thyme... |
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Mar 23 2006, 04:13 AM
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#33
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,590 Joined: 11-September 04 Member No.: 6,650 |
hmm
the answer to hacking technomancers is figuring our how to recreate psychotropic IC |
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Mar 23 2006, 05:14 AM
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#34
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
im not entirely sure i agree with that interpetation... as for a technomancer being able to maintain a PAN, its up for grabs. basicly the book dones not say either way. neither when it comes to hacking that organic "comlink" that technos call a brain... only definitive thing we know is that they cant store files... we can however guess somewhat. if we say that the general matrix traffic and the PAN works on the same protocols, then yes in theory a techno can maintain a PAN. hell they can "reboot" their "comlink" so... what you can and cant do if you try to hack it is a diffrent thing alltogether... i would allow a hack, but at the time of entry, the hacker would experience something similar to a bad acid trip or something ;) no software would work (including when trying to take on the firewall. the programs should spit back some strange errors like incompatible node and stuff like that), and the number of things a hacker could do would be limited to maybe checking the subscriptions and some other general "browsing"... |
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Mar 23 2006, 01:44 PM
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#35
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,590 Joined: 11-September 04 Member No.: 6,650 |
but what abotu black hammering the node?
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Mar 23 2006, 02:48 PM
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#36
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Technomancer Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,638 Joined: 2-October 02 From: Champaign, IL Member No.: 3,374 |
Okay, we have our first character, probably an expert in the field of hacking. Aku, can you please describe how your character uses his two commlinks? You have a Fairlight Caliban listed as well as the Aku's Backdoor Special. Does one subscribe the other? What are your normal program load outs, etc.
Meanwhile, since this guy has all of the programs in the book at the highest rating possible, I think we should probably put this guy up against more serious opposition. Do you want to run an overwatch example with this character or a data theft, Aku? I'll start working on a host over lunch and we'll try to get things up and running tonight or tomorrow. |
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Mar 23 2006, 03:50 PM
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#37
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
Yeah, I don't see any reason to think that technos are immune to hacking. Aside from being very unbalancing, it'd also mean that every corporation everywhere would toss out their existing computers and just plug technomancers into cubicles. |
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Mar 23 2006, 04:15 PM
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#38
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Technomancer Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,638 Joined: 2-October 02 From: Champaign, IL Member No.: 3,374 |
Quiet ... don't give the run away to my players :vegm: 'Course, they don't visit the boards as far as I know ..... |
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Mar 23 2006, 04:44 PM
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#39
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 137 Joined: 21-February 06 From: Lenexa, Kansas (Yes Kansas, we ain't all hicks y'all.) Member No.: 8,291 |
@Aku
That was at you, the character background sounded alot like the John Barnes novel Kaleidoscope Century, which is a very cool book. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaleidoscope_Century |
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Mar 23 2006, 05:26 PM
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#40
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 135 Joined: 27-February 06 Member No.: 8,313 |
Mmm, what exactly are you hacking? There's nothing to break into, because there's no node there. There's nothing to access, and nothing stored on the technomancer. You could hack any gear that the techno has, but that's not the same as hacking the persona. That's not to say that technos are immuned to matrix actions; you can attack them in cybercombat, for example. However, if you were to try to break through their persona, you'd find that there's no "there" there. There's no account to access, no node, and no programs running. The biggest reason that corps don't replace all their computers with techomancers is the same reason that they don't replace all their regular employees with mages or adepts. There just aren't that many folks available, and they're not suited to everything, anyway. |
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Mar 23 2006, 05:59 PM
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#41
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
I hear you and I don't discount the possibility that I'm wrong. Here's what I'm working from:
Assumption from the text: Technomancers use the Matrix, and therefore they have access codes.
Assumption: A device or a network is a node. Technos still have PANs (actually they are a PAN), despite not having any integrated data storage units. Any device can have data storage nowadays, so a techno could keep his files in his glasses or watch or electronic socks if he declares it. Assumption: Since a techno is their own commlink (complete with a subscriber list), you have to have a valid login to communicate with them (even if it's an "anonymous" login, I imagine, like when you're in active mode). Something that uses logins can potentially be hacked. Oh, and a node doesn't need to have programs running to still be a node. |
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Mar 23 2006, 06:06 PM
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#42
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Running, running, running Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,220 Joined: 18-October 04 From: North Carolina Member No.: 6,769 |
well, hmm it does sound quite interesting, but no, i hadnt read, or even heard of the book before now. It was made up in a 5 minute "oh crap!" moment when i realized i hadnt written a backstory, and was looking for the easiest "out" possible. :D |
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Mar 23 2006, 07:21 PM
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#43
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
aim for the copy of the technos persona thats allways present (just like everyone else allso have a copy of their persona in their home comlink. or atleast thats my interpetation). a black hammer program (or blackout, or attack for that matter) cant target a node directly. they target icons: personas, agents and ice... |
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Mar 23 2006, 08:18 PM
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#44
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,590 Joined: 11-September 04 Member No.: 6,650 |
um black hammer can only do personas
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Mar 23 2006, 09:16 PM
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#45
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 135 Joined: 27-February 06 Member No.: 8,313 |
Fair enough, and I'll operate from the converse assumption that I may be wrong.
I'd agree there, provided that they have a service provider. Technos don't really need a service provider to access the matrix, although that's not spelled out in the text, but they would need one for most matrix services (getting mail, receiving calls, etc.). However, an access code only allows someone to get information to you. It doesn't make you a node. Technos do manipulate the matrix directly, though, and thus don't necessarily need an access code.
Any device is a node, and a network is a collection of nodes. Technos don't necessarily have a PAN, though. Technomancers have a persona without having a device, which is sort of the point. If they have regular devices, they can still have a PAN, and those devices remain hackable. Keep in mind that a persona is not a node. You hack nodes, not personas. You attack personas, not nodes.
You don't use logins to communicate with a node, you use a login to access it. You pass information between users with a "commcode", but that's not the same as having a login to the node you're sending the information to.
Actually, it does, because outside of the context of a technomancer Firewall and System are programs. I just got served with that one myself in another thread. ;) |
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Mar 23 2006, 10:00 PM
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#46
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
Many.... tangled.... quoteboxes.... ow.
TMs have built-in organic commlinks. Commlinks, in order to access the Matrix, must have an access code. TMs must have access codes or they couldn't receive calls, files, and whatnot. But yeah, the text doesn't really say where they're getting their access codes. It doesn't really say where even normal commlinks get their codes; are there ISPs anymore? Who governs what your access code is? Is it a matter of something hardwired into each comm, like a MAC address on a network card? Fuzzy, fuzzy, and therefore bad.
I'd say they manipulate it directly in the same manner that a commlink manipulates it directly. The Technomancer section in the book says basically "TMs have organic commlinks and sim modules built in to their brains." Example: If a TM makes a commcall (without running Stealth), what does the caller ID say on the other end? Is it absolutely blank or does it show his commcode?
My understanding is that TMs are their own commlinks, and as such they are effectively an organic "device." So it's not that they have a persona without a device, it's that they have a device without having a commlink. If you could find a page number saying outright that TMs aren't a node, though, then that'd definitely make me re-evaluate my assumptions.
Absolutely. Point agreed upon and not in contention.
Hrm, another fuzzy thing. Accessing is obviously a form of communication, and I'm basing the "anonymous user" form of login off of real-world access methods.
By that reasoning, if I have no programs running on my commlink, it stops being a node. So that can't be the case. :) Edit: Although I suspect the term "program" is getting some mud in here, since it sort of has two meanings in the literal sense and the game-mechanic sense. |
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Mar 23 2006, 11:06 PM
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#47
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 371 Joined: 10-January 06 From: Regina Member No.: 8,145 |
I think everyone is getting confused between Persona and Commlink/Node.
In my understanding a Node is a system, a place, if you will, that a Persona (or Personas) can exist in the Matrix. A Hacker can exist in their Commlink (in fact the rules state that when entering VR for the "first time" from AR they start in their Commlink, their "home node"). I'm not looking at the book right now, but from how I see it, this issue comes to down to one decision: is a TM's brain simply a "floating" persona with no originating or home node, or does it function exactly like a Commlink only that it isn't an electronic device? Considering the rules imply if not explicitly state, that a TM can do everything a standard Hacker (via his Commlink) can do, I come to the conclusion that a TM's brain must function as a Node the same way that a Commlink does. It is clear that there is no data in a TM's "brain" so that cannot be taken. Where the rules are unclear (surprise) is if Complex Forms currently "running" can then be crashed by an intruding Hacker, or if the TM's brain can be crashed like any other Node can be shut down. Finally I would rule that TM's have Commcodes and Access ID's functionally identical to a standard Commlink. A TM's brain's Access ID can be altered with the same amount of time in "mental concentration" as it takes a standard Hacker to change his Commlink's Access ID. The idea of a TM having no Access ID or Commcode, and thereby untraceable, is massively unbalancing. |
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Mar 23 2006, 11:25 PM
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#48
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
node = host (sr3) = website/server (real life). atleast thats my view of it...
a sidenote about going from AR to VR. i would say that if a person have active connections/subscriptions (is it just me or are the book using the term subscriptions in two very diffrent ways depending on what its talking about?) the persons persona will show up in both (or is allready present. it would make things a pain in the ass if the persona suddenly vanishes when one change to AR). i think we realy need this thread to get underway, there is a whole lot of vague point in the matrix rules... |
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Mar 23 2006, 11:40 PM
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#49
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 135 Joined: 27-February 06 Member No.: 8,313 |
TMs have "essentially" a built-in commlink, which is not at all the same thing. I'm pretty sure that the "essentially an organic commlink" metaphor was designed to make it easier to understand technos, without the designers understanding what rules implications players would draw from it. I don't disagree that technos need an access code to receive calls, files, and other, similar things. Access codes, though, and the synonymous "commcodes" (I think they must have changed terms during playtest and missed the first instance) are just a sort of phone number, and are registered with your Matrix service provider, or MSP, if you will (p. 214). Technos should only need a commcode to receive messages and calls. They can log onto nodes, intercept traffic, compile sprites, and so forth without one. At least, that's my interpretation. The "organic commlink" thing breaks down really quickly when you try to hold it up to scrutiny. Here are some things that actual commlinks can do which technomancer "commlinks" explicitly can't:
I suspect that one of those items is also "have users log on", but I can't prove it by the text, except through inference. Note that "logging on" to a node is not the same as "subscribing" to it, although the latter is necessary for the former. Subscription allows you to communicate iinformation, and receive it, but "accessing" a node, or "logging on", lets you take actions on the node itself. Many things in the Matrix can have subscribers or be subscribed, without being nodes, such as user personas, agents, and sprites. Really, I think that thinking of a technomancer much like an organic agent or sprite is a good way to go about it. Those can have subcribers, and pass data, and run programs/CFs, acting essentially as a persona, but you obviously couldn't "log on" to one.
I think that making a commcall is likely one of those things that a technomancer needs a commcode for, which it would then display on the other end. Of course, I suppose the TM could be using a Spoof CF to fake a new commcode each time, so who knows?
And, conversely, if someone could point out where it says that they are one, I'd toss mine out the window. ;) The most I could do is point out that the Matrix Jargon section, p. 215, defines "device" as an "individual electronic device", which technomancers are not. However, I'm the first to admit that the terminology gets very fuzzy around TMs, so nitpicking may not be helpful.
You need to communicate with a node to log on to it, but not vice versa. IRL, there are many ways of communicating between two computers on the internet without one logging on to the other. HTTP, VOIP, and IM are ways of passing information back and forth without "logging on", although in Matrix terms they require subscription.
Probably true. I was pointing out that, technically, since Firewall and System are programs, and a "node" has to be running both, without running those you're just a paperweight, not a node. |
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Mar 23 2006, 11:46 PM
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#50
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,590 Joined: 11-September 04 Member No.: 6,650 |
I dunnno, do I need logic+ surgery instead? or will agility + pistols suffice |
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