 Idiot's Guide to the Matrix 2.0 |
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 Jun 17 2006, 04:17 AM
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#251
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Great Dragon  Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813  |
admin means different things on different servers. i very much doubt even admin level users have authority to rewrite the entire employee database of a AAA, or even a smaller part of a AAA, for just such reasons. corporations will plan for their admin access users to have the least control needed, specifically so that their admin level users would get scanned if something fishy is going on.
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Jun 22 2006, 04:12 AM
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#252
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,711 Joined: 15-June 06 Member No.: 8,716 |
I want one person to write up complete examples of various matrix interactions, including a decker with agents, a technomancer with sprites, and electronic warfare and taking over drones,
Then afterwards people can still ask questons and debate stuff and it will be alot easier since we will be able to just qoute stuff without having to hunt for threads and stuff. |
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Jun 22 2006, 10:03 AM
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#253
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
admin means you can do EVERYTHING in that node. Thats the definition. There are NO restrictions.
And I doubt that the employee list of an AAA is in only one node . . . (apart from that, an AAA is aconglomerate of thousands of sub corps) |
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Jun 22 2006, 10:04 AM
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#254
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
Thats what Ive done: SGM |
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Jun 22 2006, 10:28 PM
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#255
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
i fail to see why. we have only 3 levels of access listed: presumably there are an infinite number of possible variations within those 3, they just aren't worth listing. in other words, admin access is completely different on my home PC as compared to admin level access on a modern day corporation's network. so why wouldn't admin level access on a personal commlink mean something different than admin level access on a corporate network in SR4? particularly since, knowing that someone can get into their servers illegally, with admin access, they should fully realise that giving unlimited rights to admin level users is going to bite them in the hoop =P |
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Jun 22 2006, 11:12 PM
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#256
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,556 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 98 |
That's one of the reasons for decentralizing massive numbers of things. If you had to force admin access on the 10 different nodes that make up the datastore you're raiding to do what you want, it'd take a while and be nasty to try. Never have a "security network" for an entire building, have it for a portion of the building, or one of the security subsystems. Have the next subsystem or portion be on a different node. This is deliberately done as a basic security measure in SR4 to keep hackers from probing the building for a few hours and having every single system at their beck and call. |
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Jun 23 2006, 12:55 AM
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#257
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,711 Joined: 15-June 06 Member No.: 8,716 |
Serbitar take each example and post them to the forums. I cant get that websit you keep handing out to work. Or atleast change it from pdf to normal text.
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Jun 29 2006, 12:19 PM
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#258
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
Whats the problem with pdf?
But I can try to convert the Latex source into something readable. |
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Jun 29 2006, 12:22 PM
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#259
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
Because there is always ONE account that can do everything (it has to be). This is what SR4 calls admin account. The rest are just security accounts with more or less rights. |
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Jun 29 2006, 12:26 PM
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#260
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
No, he would be scanned once, when he hacks in.
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Jun 30 2006, 01:52 PM
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#261
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
Right. Even if your system administrator has a super security account with superior rights to every other account put together, he may still only have a good security account. There is still a true admin account with unlimited rights out there somewhere, even if your administrator doesn't have access to it. |
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Jun 30 2006, 05:39 PM
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#262
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,556 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 98 |
Y'all are making the mistake of applying the modern definition of admin rights to Shadowrun...
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Jun 30 2006, 05:50 PM
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#263
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
I am? I thought SR defined admin as the account that had full access, where as it's RL that tosses the term "Admin" around for several different levels of account.
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Jul 2 2006, 06:23 PM
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#264
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,711 Joined: 15-June 06 Member No.: 8,716 |
I wanna throw down my thoughts on a couple of things and see what happens.
#1. everyone keeps talking about this stupid system = response death spiral. Didnt it just mean that if you have to many programs your commi is just slower than normal so you give it a modifier of -1. Not actually drop its rating. Like you have system 5 and response 5 and you are running 12 programs so you have a -1 to your response. What that means is that your system is 5 and your response is 5 but for any tests that involve your response it has a -1 modifier on it. Thus all your programs are still at rating 5 and there is no stupid death spiral. #2. IC wouldnt notice Aku offloading an agent and try to scan HIM would they?? They would scan this new object that just showed up his Agent?? #3. Once you hack yourself user/security/admin access you are using computer+ programs to do anything that is permitted by those levels of access. Such as making your own backdoor admin access for later using admin access. No its not gonna throw up any red flags. Not unless a corp hacker or admin level employee goes over the admin level accounts and why would they? You could say that they check those things daily or weekly or whatever and give it a time limit but as for as the ic and nodes go the president of the company just added a new account. Also once you hack yourself in and have any kind of access why would the data be encrypted to itself? And if it was why couldnt the hacker just decrypt it with the access he has. I'd say security access would let you decrypt security and user data but not admin. whatever level access and below would be a free decript. #4. watcher agents/ic. I think the ic in this threads example are going way over board with scanning. If you set up an agent or ic to scan for hostiles they would only get one shot unless you glitched something you tried to do later. They would only get to scan you the first time they enter. You either fail and get detected or you succeed and count as being a legit user. You dont get rechecked 50 times a second. Now if you leave the node and then come back or a new ic/agent comes to that node then a new check happens....in fact this makes alot of sense as far as ic on "patrol". If you have 3 watchers and they are spaced out and doing loops of a group of nodes you could be hit with a scan 3 times every x amount of turns or 1 every turn, or 1 every other turn. That makes a hell of a lot more sense than an IC sitting in one spot and just continually rechecking people. Plus it would make some really awesome suspence. Imagine if 3 ic were spaced out and the time from the 3rd ic leaving and the first ic showing up again were 3 turns. When the 3rd IC comes you could attack it and you would have 3 turns to kill it before the 1st ic makes it back to that node to find you killing its clone. or if they were tightly packed you would feel a very real need to get the job done and get out. Like i said above. If you offload an agent in front of watcher IC then they would only do a one time check on the AGENT and not the guy who successfully is already in the system. (if you have more than one watcher ic then they would each get a shot) #5. I dont know what my opinion is on different levels of access on your own cyberwear or commilinks would be. I mean the nodes in enemy territory get to do it why not you? It seems like it would take vast resources to get that level of protection. Like only super ultra military cyberwear, or stolen prototype commlinks would be physically built with that level of security, there run of the mill stuff would just be basic interface stuff. If it was that easy as choosing to have it then everything would be admin level. Real life should play zero part in the mechanics of the game(except for the physical laws of the universe =P) |
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Jul 2 2006, 06:38 PM
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#265
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
that one interpreatation without death spiral. There are others. But I think yours might be the one we get for unwired. However, this would mean that this rule doesnt reall do much. Mostof the time, response is not used atall. Thats why I Prefer the rulethat at least cuts down the programme rating of all involved programmes.
Aku is eprforming an action, Why should IC note be able to noctive this?
Yes, that is also my interpretation.
Encryption has nothgin to do with access rights. Thats why data files can also be encrypted for admins. Encryption is not system (and thus access) dependent.
In my interpreation IC that is aware of you (did not fail in the detection vs stealth test) scans you everytime you do something that is not covered by your access rights. But this is up to interpretation and more important, balancing.
Loading up an agent can be an illegalaction and would thus, in my interpretation, be scanned by IC.
Devices in my worldthat do not process data (like cameras) could verywell only have admin access.
Right. But if you have no information at all, real life is the only source you have. |
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Jul 3 2006, 02:39 AM
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#266
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,711 Joined: 15-June 06 Member No.: 8,716 |
As far as offloading agents. Your not using a hacking skill to do it so why would the IC notice? This is speculation but some users are probably always running programs to help them do there job.
If you have the IC scan the hacker are you gonna have them scan the agent when he appears? No hacking = no illegal action. #3. So data flow is always encrypted and a good example of it would be 10 employee's sitting at their own desk. Each one is downloading sim porn on thier lunchbreak. The hacker is in a node where all data is being transmitted through. if he decides to pick up a piece of data and look at it he would get like the To and From information and also what type of information it is like Solo elf #2. He would then have the address to the node of the guy getting solo elf #2. Or do you let your hacker make one test against all the traffic and find out all the To and From locations? #5. My thoughts on number 5 were more directed at runners. I was making the assumption of course the corps or whoever would have the resources to have that kinda level of protection. |
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Jul 3 2006, 02:58 AM
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#267
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 556 Joined: 28-May 04 From: Moorhead, MN, USA Member No.: 6,367 |
I believe the point was made that there are no legitimate jobs to do in the choke point. Offloading agents is not something that authorized users would ever do in that node. That is why it was not a legal action (in that node) for a standard user account (which I believe is what our hacker in this example gave himself). As for "no hacking = no illegal action," I think that it is easily arguable in this case that something so simple that it does not need a test is still an illegal action. |
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Jul 3 2006, 08:28 AM
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#268
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
Who says that you do not need a hacking+edit test to upload an agent when it is not allowed? In one of my examples I explcitly called for a hacking+edit test to upload the agent.
Of course, an agent is just another persona.
It is explicitly mentinoned in RAW that you have to decrypt first before you get even the data trail information. After he decryptes a certain data stream and intercepted it, he can look at the contents and Access IDs without any further test.
Sorry, I dont get that. |
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Jul 3 2006, 12:58 PM
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#269
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,711 Joined: 15-June 06 Member No.: 8,716 |
You musta missed the #5 higher up in the thread Serb the one you qouted was my reply to De9ial. Actually in the book it says all simple electronics only have admin access.
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Jul 3 2006, 01:46 PM
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#270
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
I know. I still do not get the problem. Most devices that do not have to handle traffic or are production servers have only admin accounts. Runners and corps alike devices alike. So what?
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Jul 3 2006, 05:50 PM
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#271
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,711 Joined: 15-June 06 Member No.: 8,716 |
well from reading the latter half of this thread it didnt appear that i was the only one that didnt know that and i was trying to figure it out and give my opinion.
<3 ur newbies or u wouldnt ever get to look smart! :grinbig: |
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Jul 6 2006, 05:18 AM
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#272
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
hmm, i have not been paying attention lately i see...
#1 is my interpetation allso. btw, response is used in two important places, VR initative and matrix combat defense tests. overload your response and your slower in VR and easier to hit. the "problem" of the feedback loop between system and response is that outside of a artifact around rating 4 or so, it its 0 the moment it gets triggerd. ie, its a all or nothing effect. and i would have expect the writers to atleast have put a "that means that a response decrease based on having more then x programs active will allso decrease your system rating". however, there is nothing of the sort in the text, but it talks over and over about a response descrease (atleast two places, maybe more). so either nobody spotted this possible feedback effect in the playtest, something got edited out, or its not supposed to be read that way. allso, i noticed a interesting bit about nodes, that i previously had only assumed. in the matrix jargon list they are clearly defined as both a single device and as a network. allso, under "linking and subscribing" (p212) there is a entry about a device being set to either interact with another device, or a whole network. this to me indicates that you can in theory stack your whole PAN under a single subscription entry. i recall someone having the interpetation that any device was a node and therefor needed a subscription, and this interpetation may well be valid. it allso means that your cyberleg may be set to talk to the whole matrix as a free-standing node as default :eek:. bah, i hate it when stuff like that slips under my radar. btw, who else have noticed the entry about riggers being able to have multiple drones subscribed as a single subscription (with the limitation that they all get the same order)? page 238, controlling drones... again something that i have found only after repeated reading :( |
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Aug 3 2006, 08:29 AM
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#273
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Target Group: Members Posts: 10 Joined: 14-July 06 Member No.: 8,889 |
Rise from your grave!
Is this thread officaly dead in the water? |
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