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> Idiot's Guide to the Matrix 2.0
Azathfeld
post Mar 25 2006, 02:25 AM
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Gotcha.

I do wonder if "Are technomancers nodes?" is the wrong question. It seems perhaps likely to lead to a "yeah, sort of" answer that won't be really helpful. What we're really looking to answer is "Can technomancers be hacked?"
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Aaron
post Mar 25 2006, 05:00 AM
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QUOTE (Dashifen)
The attributes for the host are 6/6/0/6 (System, Response, Signal, Firewall). It's running the following programs:
  • Analyze 5
  • Data Bomb 4
  • Encrypt 5
  • Agent 5 (three times)

There are three types of IC agents in the system: an attacker, a tracker, and a hybrid of the two:
  • Attacker: Blackout 5, Armor 5, Analyze 5, Attack 5, Stealth 5
  • Tracker: Exploit 5, Stealth 5, Analyze 5, Attack 5, Track 5
  • Hybrid: Exploit 5, Stealth 5, Attack 5, Armor 5, Track 5

Wouldn't this mean that the node would be running at Response 4, since it is running twelve programs (per RAW p. 228), since the agents (which are themselves programs) are running programs independent of a hacker?
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hobgoblin
post Mar 25 2006, 05:22 AM
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the programs of a agent is contained within the agent. therefor its only one program (pr agent).

allso, those agents will not be running all the time right?

i allso wonder why encrypt and data bomb is loaded. from what i understand you only need to run them to set up the data bomb or the encryption...
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Aaron
post Mar 25 2006, 06:24 AM
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QUOTE (hobgoblin)
the programs of a agent is contained within the agent. therefor its only one program (pr agent).

At the risk of sounding contentious, exactly what hardware are those agents running their programs on, if not the node?

Unless I'm reading it wrong, the rules strongly imply on page 228 that programs loaded for agents' use apply to Response reductions.
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hobgoblin
post Mar 25 2006, 06:36 AM
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the programs loaded into a agent reduce the agents own response...

the agent in turn may reduce the response on whatever node its running on ;)

think of the agent as a virtual node if you will...

in the end its not so much about computing resources but about how effective the os/agent can amanage multiple tasks. overload it with tasks and the whole system (virtual or real) suffers.

a agent is a single task, but is managing its own set of sub-tasks...

the "it's" in the payload section on page 228 is refering to the agent, not the node. yes the agent have a response derived from the node its currently on, but that response is independent of the nodes response...
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Aaron
post Mar 25 2006, 08:29 AM
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QUOTE (hobgoblin)
the programs loaded into a agent reduce the agents own response...

Sorry, I don't buy it.

The agent doesn't have it's own Response, it uses the Response of the node it's on. Doesn't that strongly suggest that it's the node's Response that is affected?

If an agent is running programs separately from the hardware it's running on, where does the agent get the resources to run the programs it's loaded with? Page 228 says that an independently acting agent must have its programs active in order to use them. If they don't count toward the hardware's program count, then there must be some way to run a program without filling the hardware, and everybody would be using those kinds of programs on their own commlinks. (hm ... maybe I can convince my GM that this is the case ...)

It doesn't matter how many virtual machines (i.e. agents) I'm running on a system, it's still using the same hardware to run. If I'm on, say, linux on a P3 and I start a virtual machine, the VM doesn't magically grow a new processor to cope with the added load (although that would solve a lot of my problems at work). In fact, the entire system needs to be able to handle whatever I'm running, plus the VM, plus whatever the VM is running. [And yes, I know this is The Future, but unless they've started making computers with orichalcum, certain rules still apply.]

QUOTE (hobgoblin)
the "it's" in the payload section on page 228 is refering to the agent, not the node. yes the agent have a response derived from the node its currently on, but that response is independent of the nodes response...


How do you figure? The rules on page 227 say "Agents use the Response attribute of whatever node they are run on." If the response of the agent were independent, one would imagine that it would instead say something like, "The Response of the agent is equal to that of the node," or, "the Response of the agent is derived from the node it is running on." It seems to me that the rules are saying that whenever the agent uses needs its Response, it uses the node's.

(sorry if any of that is not coherent; I'm having trouble sleeping.) :dead:
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Dissonance
post Mar 25 2006, 09:14 AM
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I'm not familiar at _all_ with the new 2.0 rules, but I have to say that a lot of the stuff about agents is, well.

It's in the same category as watcher spirits. It's possible to break the whatever with them by summoning them en masse. I just figure that both sides make a gentleman's agreement to actually not do it.

However, I could see that as being the flavor behind the mechanics of actually crashing a system, or whatnot. Just uploading enough agents until the universe explodes.
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hobgoblin
post Mar 25 2006, 11:19 AM
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in the end, its another case of the rules being vague...
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Aku
post Mar 25 2006, 03:27 PM
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off topic RE: official pressence, dont forget that Fanpro, iirc is technically a 1 employee show, with everything beoing done freelance, the question of "Does fanpro read these boards" is a rather loaded question, and very yes or no, but do the free lancers, most definately, theres quite a few and for the most part of well accustomed to taking constructive critcism. Now on top the topic at hand...

denote action specific questions. i.e. something i'm not sure Dash explained

denotes crunchy rules bits, such as what i'm rolling for certain actions

denotes semi questions or clarifications, that off the top of my head i'm not sure of and think others might be confused by as well
denotes personal opinion, skip if desired

I'm working in Hot sim VR making my init 6+3+1 with 3 IP's. for an initative of 10.

As far as i'm concerned, a load of 5 programs is much to weak, and so i'm pretty much always going to be working with 6-11, lossing the +1 init due to running in hot sim, but i think the extra IP's are more worth it than the extra +1 anyways.

For this run, my Persona and agents will be using a "futuristic soldier" motif, that is either available or would have been created by me prior to entering the node. I am the robotic commander, and my agents are all soldiers in the army, described in their own sections.

As i said above, stealth and spoof are defaults, and for this mission, i'll also take the following:
Am i aware of the factoids of the @everyone portion above? or am i just aware of ic in general?

Analyze-I need to know when the IC and hackers are coming at me, 'nuff said

Armor-At the least, i know that there is some sort of ic in the system, along with a possible sec hacker

Biofeedback Filter- Even though i may not know that theres Black IC on the host, i wouldnt risk my brain to it, so it's there, it could probably almost be a default as well.

Unfortunately, this got removed as a hardware function as it was in SR3 and now counts as payload :(

Exploit Kinda a given, dontcha think?

Here's an oddity. Nowhere can i see does it state "when" the complex action has to take place for loading programs, nor does it say if EACH program takes an complex, or if it's possible to do "packages". I would imagine you could do packages, as we can do similar things with Windows now (set up multiple accounts, and only set up certain programs for certain accounts) Nor does it say how programs running off of your persona work; it states that agents loaded onto a node must have the programs active, so does that imply that agents running directly from your persona have immediate access to all of the programs you cary? For now, i think i'm going to fill the rest of my slots with agents for various uses

Agent 1 "Battlecat"- Attack, Armor, stealth. The Battlecat is a bipedal mechwarrior agent whose main purpose is combat, but is able to stealth around to deceive it's targets.

Agent 2- "Boomer the debomber"Analyze, defuse, stealth. Boomer is one of the few humanoid agents left in my arsenel, resembling a small goblin from mytho's, who goes around blowing up bombs, perhaps tricking enemies into thinking he failed even if he succeeded.

Agent 3&4="Spyman"Analyze, edit, stealth and Decrpyt, exploit, and stealth. Even though it's two seperate agents, "Spyman" always works as a team, complimenting each other's skills, like a superhero tandem.

Agent 5- "Fido" Browse, sniffer, stealth Fido is a robotic dog, who does my datamining and traffic watch.

And thats my initial load out for this run.

Once we're in the building, since this is an onsight run, i'll hack on the fly. rolling Hacking (5)+ exploit(6) vs. Firewall (6). Each roll takes 1 ip to complete, and the server gets to roll an Analyze+firewall Vs my stealth 6 to detect me.

[ Spoiler ]


Since i have no intention of staying on this node for very long, i see no reason to risk giving my self higher level access for now. Also, had i been offsite, i would've probed the node instead, it takes an interval of 1 hour, but the host only gets one shot to detect you, when you actually break in. Unfortunately, being on site i wouldnt be comfortable sitting around for a couple of hours trying to crack into their system.


Lemme know if those are readable, it's kinda hard for me but meh, my eyes suck
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Azathfeld
post Mar 25 2006, 03:39 PM
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Running more than 6 programs, as you've noted, drops Response by 1, but System is limited by Response, so your System has dropped to 5 as well. This further limits your program ratingsto no more than 5.
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Jaid
post Mar 25 2006, 05:12 PM
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indeed. you should add in a reality filter to get your response back up to 6 :P
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hobgoblin
post Mar 25 2006, 09:08 PM
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QUOTE (Azathfeld @ Mar 25 2006, 04:39 PM)
Running more than 6 programs, as you've noted, drops Response by 1, but System is limited by Response, so your System has dropped to 5 as well.  This further limits your program ratingsto no more than 5.

not sure you want to go down that road as that can lead to death spiral logics.

response 6, system 6, 10 programs...

this is more then the system rating but not double it, so you get a -1 on response.

but now system allso drops by 1 and therefor your running system x2 programs.

thats a -2 on response. bringing it and system down to 4.

ok so hopefully at that point the spiral stops, or does it?

looks like it does as your running system x 2 + 2 programs now. thats not enough to trigger a -3, but enough to maintain the -2.

but load two more programs in and here we go again. and this time i dont think it will stop until rock bottom...

one thing tho. im partial for ruling that you cant crash a comlink or other node this way. yes you can send both response and system to 1 (if you go by the logic that system is effected by the drop in response from program overload), but i would have it bottom out there. and no matter how many more programs, agents or whatever that you load onto it, it will stay 1...

hmm, another side effect of the death spiral is that as it goes on, more and more active subscriptions will be dropped as you can only have as many subscriptions active as system x 2.

and to aku: trying to read the dark purple or dark green is difficult on the gray background of dumpshock posts...
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Divine Virus
post Mar 25 2006, 09:38 PM
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I'm wondering what has what level of defenses? I mean, what would have black IC, what would have what ratings?
I assume that anything owned by an AAA corp is going to have level 6 black IC on everything (can IC rating go beyond 6?). but what about your average smalltime buiness? How about your average Johnston's commlink? What about a newstation? a highschool's system?
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hobgoblin
post Mar 25 2006, 09:59 PM
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black ice would probably not show up on anything but the very high security systems. non-lethal and even more so lethal force is not a good idea on pulbic, high traffic systems.

its like making it a shooting offence to open a "staff only" door...

its realy hard to say that a company will use rating X while a joe wageslave would use a rating Y. maybe joe have a interest in electronics (much like the geeks of today buying high end mobile phones with lots of features not because they need them but because they are "cool"), and the company node is just a promotion server?

most joe's would probably walk around with a meta link or CMT clip running vector zim (alltho some bozo would probably get one running redcap nix alltho its a but to hot for his comlink).

johnsons? damn hard to tell. it realy depends on who he is working for and so on...

office nodes will probably be custom products. just enough signal to cover the office (or maybe a bit more if they dont feel like/cant afford having a chokepoint node), response enough to run the security software the resident corp hacker feels is needed, as high a firewall as they can afford, and system to match the response.

so to set the node ratings you have to think like a corp. the security people would want the hottest stuff they can get. the accounting will want the cheapest they can get. in the end it will be a compromise unless the exec cuts thru and decide that the extra expense will be worth it given what they do at that place...
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Azathfeld
post Mar 25 2006, 10:25 PM
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QUOTE (hobgoblin)
QUOTE (Azathfeld @ Mar 25 2006, 04:39 PM)
Running more than 6 programs, as you've noted, drops Response by 1, but System is limited by Response, so your System has dropped to 5 as well.  This further limits your program ratingsto no more than 5.

not sure you want to go down that road as that can lead to death spiral logics.

I'm not going down any road, it's just what the rules say. If we start houseruling things in this thread, I'm not sure how useful it's going to be.
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Rotbart van Dain...
post Mar 25 2006, 10:58 PM
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QUOTE (Azathfeld)
Running more than 6 programs, as you've noted, drops Response by 1, but System is limited by Response, so your System has dropped to 5 as well. This further limits your program ratingsto no more than 5.

No, that crashes your commlink, as that creates a recursive loop.
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Azathfeld
post Mar 25 2006, 11:36 PM
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QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Mar 25 2006, 05:58 PM)
QUOTE (Azathfeld @ Mar 25 2006, 05:39 PM)
Running more than 6 programs, as you've noted, drops Response by 1, but System is limited by Response, so your System has dropped to 5 as well.  This further limits your program ratingsto no more than 5.

No, that crashes your commlink, as that creates a recursive loop.

It doesn't crash your commlink until you get to ten programs. At nine, you're still only getting the -1 penalty.

Edit: although, going back, I realize that he's running about eleven programs, so yeah.

Edit2: Actually, eleven programs doesn't quite crash it, but it does reduce Response to 4, and thus System to 4, as well as all program ratings. Twelve would crash it.
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hobgoblin
post Mar 26 2006, 12:40 AM
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problem is again that the rules do not say clearly that a effective drop in response from running more then system rating in programs allso affect the system rating.

it only states that system is limited by response. it could be that said rule is only effective on the initial setup...

again its so vague and without an example that i dont know what way to interpet it. but to me the death spiral looks like overkill, nothing something a person would deliberatly put into the game. its just not worth it to have a mechanic like that in there.

while i was interested in this thread at the start, im starting to think that the wireless matrix rules as they stand are two open for interpetation and that we need to have them more defined before we continue on this thread.
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Aku
post Mar 26 2006, 03:03 AM
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QUOTE (Azathfeld)
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Mar 25 2006, 05:58 PM)
QUOTE (Azathfeld @ Mar 25 2006, 05:39 PM)
Running more than 6 programs, as you've noted, drops Response by 1, but System is limited by Response, so your System has dropped to 5 as well.  This further limits your program ratingsto no more than 5.

No, that crashes your commlink, as that creates a recursive loop.

It doesn't crash your commlink until you get to ten programs. At nine, you're still only getting the -1 penalty.

Edit: although, going back, I realize that he's running about eleven programs, so yeah.

Edit2: Actually, eleven programs doesn't quite crash it, but it does reduce Response to 4, and thus System to 4, as well as all program ratings. Twelve would crash it.

notice guys that i'm using my custom comm for all of my hacking, which is 6/6/6/6, so first degrade would be at 6, second would be at 12, so running 11 programs is still only -1
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Jaid
post Mar 26 2006, 05:56 AM
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no, because you just lost 1 from running more programs, so your response goes down. your response is the limit for your system, which drops that to 5 also. because your system is 5, all your other programs also lower to 4, and you are now limited to 10 programs running before a slowdown... but you have 11 programs running, which drops your response *again*, which drops your system, which drops all your other programs.

thus, you are at 4 response, system, and therefore your programs are all capped at 4.

swap something out for a reality filter is my advice =P that would bring you up to 5 if it works....

it's a viscious circle my friend =P
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Dissonance
post Mar 26 2006, 06:11 AM
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Jeez. I'm beginning to think that we ought to restart the thread and just use the hacker in the book for the first example, so that everybody'll be on the same page.
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hobgoblin
post Mar 26 2006, 10:12 AM
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i dont think that would help as its not the hacker thats the problem, its the rules that can be interpeted atleast 2 ways...
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Rotbart van Dain...
post Mar 26 2006, 10:19 AM
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QUOTE (Jaid)
thus, you are at 4 response, system, and therefore your programs are all capped at 4.

..now you are runneing 11 programs, which is greater than Systemx2 and reduces your Response again by -2...
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Aku
post Mar 26 2006, 11:53 AM
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i dont think it's in the spirit of the rules, that thats how it works, and i also think that it's strongly implied in the rules that the only effect of the loss of response, is the loss of the initative.

[quoite= sr4 p.212]
so if you're running 20 programs with a system of 5, your response will be reduced by 2. [/quote]

Now, i realize this isnt "conculsive", however, i think if they wanted it to work in a cycle, they would state what everyone around here does, about how it then reduces the response again, making the new cap 8, and oops, you're still over than so you go down again. It's just not intelligent gameplay to have it work like that, and i think some very important words were cut during editing.

Lets try an example like this, with realworld stuff. Think back to when you had a program crash in XP (if you use it), but kept trying to do other stuff. You were capable of even starting other programs, even though your cpu cycles were at 100%, but everything was HELLA slow, your response was decreased, until you got the crashed program to clos out. Programs didnt become "less", just slower, which is what response represents, imo.
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hobgoblin
post Mar 26 2006, 03:13 PM
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bingo, think of it this way:

when system becomes overloaded it have to eat up more response to managing the diffrent programs. therefor the comlink/node have less response to spend on the persona.

this can allso work for explaining agents and ice. with more internal "programs" they have to spend more time managing them and less time fighing, resulting in a drop of their internal response (that happens to be based on the response of whatever node they are currently active on).

its kinda like why people turn of their real time virus scans (or compleatly kill the program) to get better performance in games.
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