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Wait a second..., That just doesn't seem right.

Jaid View Member Profile	Mar 23 2006, 12:12 AM Post #1
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813	Has anyone else noticed that you apparently don't suffer fading for registering a sprite? oh, you suffer fading for compiling them. but reading the registering section on page 235, no mention. weird... or perhaps i'm just missing something?

Eryk the Red View Member Profile	Mar 23 2006, 01:43 AM Post #2
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 633 Joined: 23-February 06 Member No.: 8,301	Page 237, under Fading, it says that when compiling or registering a sprite, you suffer fading equal to twice the hits scored by the sprite.

Jaid View Member Profile	Mar 23 2006, 01:52 AM Post #3
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813	ah, ok then... makes more sense. still doesn't make sense mind you, but it makes more sense. the more i look at it, the more i like frank's suggested houserule of less random summoning/compiling/binding/registering drain... and even more appealing is a system where drain is fixed. honestly, the way it stands, one of these days there should be the following on the news: "in a recent turn of events, Lofwyr suddenly exploded in a horrible gory mess today. bones and scales are still being picked out of the walls now. Sources say that he was simply conjuring a spirit well within his abilities, when all of a sudden he was seen to simply fall to pieces. Live on the scene of the incident..." and so on. honestly, just seems a tad ridiculous is all.

Divine Virus View Member Profile	Mar 23 2006, 03:44 AM Post #4
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 801 Joined: 13-March 06 Member No.: 8,374	I really don' think its that bad, the drain/fading rules. BTW, can you put a cap on hits? I mean, lets say you only want a sprite to do one favor, can you say before you roll that you only want 1 hit to count, thus lessening drain?

The Horror

Mar 23 2006, 10:14 AM

Post #5

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QUOTE (Divine Virus)

BTW, can you put a cap on hits? I mean, lets say you only want a sprite to do one favor, can you say before you roll that you only want 1 hit to count, thus lessening drain?

Definately not. You need one net hit for a favour. If the spirit/sprite roll 7 hits, and you roll 8, you only get 1 service.

The large amounts of potential drain is the only reason players don't go around summoning Force 10 spirits/sprites. What if all those dice come up as hits? Worse, what if they all come up hits while you are binding/registering it?

Jaid View Member Profile	Mar 23 2006, 11:34 PM Post #6
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813	i don't mind high drain. i just mind that if you were to conjure the same spirit twice, you might get 2 drain one time, and 20 the next. hence the comment about lofwyr suddenly exploding while summoning a spirit that would normally be well within his abilities to handle =P

Eryk the Red View Member Profile	Mar 24 2006, 05:08 AM Post #7
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 633 Joined: 23-February 06 Member No.: 8,301	I'm okay with the idea that you might suffer more drain this time than last time summoning that spirit. I figure that falls under my catch-all SR rule of "Shit happens". And sometimes, that shit makes the mage bleed from his ears.

Zen Shooter01 View Member Profile	Mar 24 2006, 06:19 AM Post #8
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 932 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Orlando, Florida Member No.: 1,042	Let spirits roll edge to resist summoning, and things get even uglier.

Divine Virus View Member Profile	Mar 24 2006, 12:57 PM Post #9
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 801 Joined: 13-March 06 Member No.: 8,374	do spirits have edge?

Eryk the Red View Member Profile	Mar 24 2006, 02:07 PM Post #10
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 633 Joined: 23-February 06 Member No.: 8,301	Yes, the way spirits are statted out, they have Edge. Every critter does, in fact. I've found, however (and I can safely assume many other GMs are the same way), that it's really not worth worrying about. Spirits don't spend Edge unless there's a damn good reason. And by "damn good", I mean "cool".

Dashifen

Mar 24 2006, 02:11 PM

Post #11

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QUOTE (Eryk the Red)

Yes, the way spirits are statted out, they have Edge. Every critter does, in fact. I've found, however (and I can safely assume many other GMs are the same way), that it's really not worth worrying about. Spirits don't spend Edge unless there's a damn good reason. And by "damn good", I mean "cool".

Or you have spirit bane. :vegm:

Butterblume View Member Profile	Mar 24 2006, 03:07 PM Post #12
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,150 Joined: 19-December 05 From: Rhein-Ruhr Megaplex Member No.: 8,081	This is actually a very good idea :D.

Aku View Member Profile	Mar 24 2006, 03:43 PM Post #13
Running, running, running Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,220 Joined: 18-October 04 From: North Carolina Member No.: 6,769	but you have to examine, where, in your games, do spirits come from? is there a giant pot ' spirits on the metaplans, and when you sommon one, you get one of the approriate force out of the pot 'o spirits? or is each one a uniquely created entity when it is summoned? If the former, i would say theres no problem with using edge to resist summonings, but if it's the latter, than i dont think the spirit is fully "formed" to use edge to resist it yet.

Shrike30 View Member Profile	Mar 24 2006, 07:46 PM Post #14
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,556 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 98	I'm of the opinion that spirits enter into "summoned contracts" pretty willingly... the mage is feeding them mana (which is why he takes drain) in exchange for services. Why throw Edge to try and avoid something you want to do? It's like skipping your day job. Binding, on the other hand, is the summoner equivalent of shanghaiing. Spirits are big on not getting bound, and so they throw Edge at avoiding it like there's no tomorrow.

FrankTrollman

Mar 24 2006, 08:40 PM

Post #15

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QUOTE

Binding, on the other hand, is the summoner equivalent of shanghaiing. Spirits are big on not getting bound, and so they throw Edge at avoiding it like there's no tomorrow.

That gets into some serious game balance problems though. Game mechanically, Summoning is potentially overpowered and binding is already extremely weak. Having spirits throw Edge to avoid Binding is somewhat flavorful, but it outright kills player characters who are attempting what is already a somewhat underpowered strategy.

-Frank

Divine Virus View Member Profile	Mar 24 2006, 10:06 PM Post #16
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 801 Joined: 13-March 06 Member No.: 8,374	What about sprites? do they also have edge? And if so can they use it on such a roll?

Jaid View Member Profile	Mar 24 2006, 10:48 PM Post #17
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813	sprites have no edge, AFAICT. and i still say that the drain is too variable. even with a fixed drain value, you get variation... based on your drain resistance. and remember, you don't assume 1 hit per 4 dice unless it is something simple and not stressful. it's kinda like the SR 4 way of taking 10 (for those of you that use d20).

Dashifen View Member Profile	Mar 24 2006, 10:49 PM Post #18
Technomancer Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,638 Joined: 2-October 02 From: Champaign, IL Member No.: 3,374	I can't find anything about Sprite edge, either.

Divine Virus View Member Profile	Mar 24 2006, 10:58 PM Post #19
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 801 Joined: 13-March 06 Member No.: 8,374	I was pretty sure sprites didn't have edge. When I am figuring out odds I assume an average of 1 in 3 hit. So lets say you are summoning a level 6 sprities. You get an average of 2 hits, thats 4 drain. if you have say, will 4, resonance 4 you should soak 2-3 dice of that. If you have someone on the team with a level 6 medkit, and someone should, they you should be able to be able to be fully healed with first aid.

FrankTrollman

Mar 25 2006, 01:37 AM

Post #20

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QUOTE (Divine Virus)

I was pretty sure sprites didn't have edge. When I am figuring out odds I assume an average of 1 in 3 hit. So lets say you are summoning a level 6 sprities. You get an average of 2 hits, thats 4 drain. if you have say, will 4, resonance 4 you should soak 2-3 dice of that. If you have someone on the team with a level 6 medkit, and someone should, they you should be able to be able to be fully healed with first aid.

You should, but then it's pretty easy to get 5 or 6 hits on 6 dice, at which point you're resisting 10 or 12P. That can get fatal quickly (though with a little tweaking it won't be).

The problem is that there's not a whole lot you can do to keep from occassionally exploding when registering even a smaller sprite. A Rating 5 sprite rolls 10 dice, and you could theoretically be resisting 20P, which is more than the character can resist without death.

-Frank

The Horror View Member Profile	Mar 25 2006, 02:04 AM Post #21
Target Group: Members Posts: 72 Joined: 28-March 05 Member No.: 7,251	I would only use Edge for binding, and even then only if the mage was attempting a second binding on the same spirit. Same for Technomancers.

Ranneko View Member Profile	Mar 25 2006, 02:05 AM Post #22
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 349 Joined: 16-January 05 Member No.: 6,984	True, however if they have a resonance of 5+ it becomes a max of 20S, which most characters can JUST soak without dying. (Most characters I have seen have at least one of their tracks being 11+)

Divine Virus

Mar 25 2006, 02:35 AM

Post #23

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QUOTE (FrankTrollman)

QUOTE (Divine Virus @ Mar 24 2006, 05:58 PM)

I was pretty sure sprites didn't have edge. When I am figuring out odds I assume an average of 1 in 3 hit. So lets say you are summoning a level 6 sprities. You get an average of 2 hits, thats 4 drain. if you have say, will 4, resonance 4 you should soak 2-3 dice of that. If you have someone on the team with a level 6 medkit, and someone should, they you should be able to be able to be fully healed with first aid.

You should, but then it's pretty easy to get 5 or 6 hits on 6 dice, at which point you're resisting 10 or 12P. That can get fatal quickly (though with a little tweaking it won't be).

The problem is that there's not a whole lot you can do to keep from occassionally exploding when registering even a smaller sprite. A Rating 5 sprite rolls 10 dice, and you could theoretically be resisting 20P, which is more than the character can resist without death.

-Frank

wait a tick, your telling me that on six dice 5 or 6 are going to come up 5s or 6s? I find that hard to beleive, in fact it has never worked that way in my expeirence. Except once. Bloodly lost a tournament becuase of it too.....
Anyways. As I rule of thumb I would never compile a sprite that would give you if it scored all hits and you soaked none.

Dashifen View Member Profile	Mar 25 2006, 03:05 AM Post #24
Technomancer Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,638 Joined: 2-October 02 From: Champaign, IL Member No.: 3,374	But that's Frank's entire point, Divine Virus. That it happens, even if rarely, is what makes Binding/Registering so dangerous.

Jaid View Member Profile	Mar 25 2006, 03:05 AM Post #25
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813	it still makes no sense IMO. i much prefer the old fixed drain values. i mean, honestly, they don't make spell drain based on the resistance test of the person you target. why should the conjuring drain be based on the opposed test of the spirit?

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