Has anyone else noticed that you apparently don't suffer fading for registering a sprite? oh, you suffer fading for compiling them. but reading the registering section on page 235, no mention.

weird... or perhaps i'm just missing something?

Page 237, under Fading, it says that when compiling or registering a sprite, you suffer fading equal to twice the hits scored by the sprite.

ah, ok then... makes more sense.

still doesn't make sense mind you, but it makes more sense.

the more i look at it, the more i like frank's suggested houserule of less random summoning/compiling/binding/registering drain...

and even more appealing is a system where drain is fixed.

honestly, the way it stands, one of these days there should be the following on the news:

"in a recent turn of events, Lofwyr suddenly exploded in a horrible gory mess today. bones and scales are still being picked out of the walls now. Sources say that he was simply conjuring a spirit well within his abilities, when all of a sudden he was seen to simply fall to pieces.

Live on the scene of the incident..."

and so on. honestly, just seems a tad ridiculous is all.

I really don' think its that bad, the drain/fading rules. BTW, can you put a cap on hits? I mean, lets say you only want a sprite to do one favor, can you say before you roll that you only want 1 hit to count, thus lessening drain?

i don't mind high drain. i just mind that if you were to conjure the same spirit twice, you might get 2 drain one time, and 20 the next.

hence the comment about lofwyr suddenly exploding while summoning a spirit that would normally be well within his abilities to handle =P

I'm okay with the idea that you might suffer more drain this time than last time summoning that spirit. I figure that falls under my catch-all SR rule of "Shit happens". And sometimes, that shit makes the mage bleed from his ears.

Let spirits roll edge to resist summoning, and things get even uglier.

do spirits have edge?

Yes, the way spirits are statted out, they have Edge. Every critter does, in fact. I've found, however (and I can safely assume many other GMs are the same way), that it's really not worth worrying about. Spirits don't spend Edge unless there's a damn good reason. And by "damn good", I mean "cool".

This is actually a very good idea .

but you have to examine, where, in your games, do spirits come from? is there a giant pot ' spirits on the metaplans, and when you sommon one, you get one of the approriate force out of the pot 'o spirits? or is each one a uniquely created entity when it is summoned?

If the former, i would say theres no problem with using edge to resist summonings, but if it's the latter, than i dont think the spirit is fully "formed" to use edge to resist it yet.

I'm of the opinion that spirits enter into "summoned contracts" pretty willingly... the mage is feeding them mana (which is why he takes drain) in exchange for services. Why throw Edge to try and avoid something you want to do? It's like skipping your day job.

Binding, on the other hand, is the summoner equivalent of shanghaiing. Spirits are big on not getting bound, and so they throw Edge at avoiding it like there's no tomorrow.

What about sprites? do they also have edge? And if so can they use it on such a roll?

sprites have no edge, AFAICT.

and i still say that the drain is too variable. even with a fixed drain value, you get variation... based on your drain resistance.

and remember, you don't assume 1 hit per 4 dice unless it is something simple and not stressful. it's kinda like the SR 4 way of taking 10 (for those of you that use d20).

I can't find anything about Sprite edge, either.

I was pretty sure sprites didn't have edge. When I am figuring out odds I assume an average of 1 in 3 hit. So lets say you are summoning a level 6 sprities. You get an average of 2 hits, thats 4 drain. if you have say, will 4, resonance 4 you should soak 2-3 dice of that. If you have someone on the team with a level 6 medkit, and someone should, they you should be able to be able to be fully healed with first aid.

I would only use Edge for binding, and even then only if the mage was attempting a second binding on the same spirit. Same for Technomancers.

True, however if they have a resonance of 5+ it becomes a max of 20S, which most characters can JUST soak without dying. (Most characters I have seen have at least one of their tracks being 11+)

But that's Frank's entire point, Divine Virus. That it happens, even if rarely, is what makes Binding/Registering so dangerous.

it still makes no sense IMO. i much prefer the old fixed drain values.

i mean, honestly, they don't make spell drain based on the resistance test of the person you target. why should the conjuring drain be based on the opposed test of the spirit?

Because the spell is a pure extension of the will of the caster, while a summoner is attempting to wrangle a seperate, sentient (or at least sapient) being to your will.

whereas a control mind spell is all about controlling... oh wait, that's right... a separate, sapient, and sentient being.

And that seperate, sapient, and sentient being gets to resist it.

yeah, well that separate sapient being resisting is not the issue. the issue is that the separate, sapient being resisting in 1 case can KILL you simply by resisting, whereas in the second case the worst they can do is remain unaffected.

i certainly am not trying to argue that spirits should not roll to resist being conjured/bound. i am saying the drain should be more standard.

odds of force 6 spirit getting 6 resistance successes 729 to 1 or 0.137%
odds of force 6 spirit making 5 succeses 60.75 to 1 or 1.65%

that second number scares me

If you're Lofwyr, would you take a one tenth of one percent chance of death? Ever?

-Frank

Yes I would, if I felt the potential gains worth it, not taking risks show I am weak and undeserving of my power.

He clearly takes risks, for example he has gone toe to toe with several dragons, including other greats, he has won every time by being good at what he does, not by not taking risks.

Plus, he probably has, like, 50 metamagics not known to humans that prevent the head-explodie.

Ophis taking such risks regularly leads to a short lifespan

Kremlin - only if you handle them stupidly, only take them when you need to and save your edge for those occasions. Loffie definately takes risks, when required not just for the fun of it, he just makes sure he survives them. One day he may bite off more than he can chew, but I doubt it.

Plus who cares if the spirit rolls more hits than loffie can soak the drain for? Its rerolling those hits...

not until FanPRO decides whether to port that power over to 4e

Lowfyr also has the being an NPC power, allowing him to do stuff that the GM figures he should be able to do without dying, and the important metaplot character power, meaning that since he's going to show up in a future supplement or published adventure, he obviously didn't die from Drain.

Also the GM could just decide that instead of rolling the huge dice pools, the Dragon and the Spirit each get 1 hit for each 4 dice, every time.

But for PCs, the Drain rules are kind of scary (especially if the Spirit spends Edge, and why wouldn't it?). I like (Force) dice + 1/2 (Force) (rounded down), which allows a Force 5 spirit to cost no more than 7 drain (instead of 10), and a Force 6 no more than 9 (instead of 12), and a Force 7 no more than 10 (instead of 14).

How about, though, if the spirit's Force is higher than the summoner's Magic, it gets (Force x 2) dice, and if it's the same or lower, Drain is (F) dice + 1/2 (F)?

force higher and lower already makes the difference between phyiscal and stun. i think that's a scary enough difference when you could take more damage than your damage track can hold.

i am still considering a fixed drain houserule though. while i certainly can't say you should hesitate to kill a PC for stupidity (like full frontal assault on a AAA... or, for that matter, even a AA).

it's a whole different thing for them to just die randomly because they got unlucky, and their head exploded while doing something that should be routine. IOW, if they deserve to die (the character, not the player), no problem. that's part of the game. but i really can't say i would appreciate it (as the player this happened to, as another player in the group, or as the GM) if the character died from summoning because he got unlucky. as the one it happened to, i just lost a character, and have to make a new one. as one of the players in the group, i just lost a teammate (probably a critical one at that) over something stupid and minor. and now he's probably going to sit there with the book all through the session, pestering the GM with questions as well as the other players. and as the GM, he's gonna be pestering me with questions, annoying the other players, and in general make the session a less enjoyable one.

and besides, if the world doesn't work, that doesn't mean you just say "oh well, it works the way it should for NPCs, but for you guys the universe is just out to get you."

that sort of thing has always bothered me in games, where they just say "oh, you can't do that, because we don't want you to. but it's ok for other people to do it."

or "whatever the players come up with, it doesn't work. you may now proceed with plan A1: railroad them into doing exactly what your script calls for them to do. always remember to squelch any signs of imaginative or inventive solutions before they get off the ground. the players will give up more readily if they have less invested in something."

oh boy, well that sure sounds like fun, doesn't it?

One can always use edge to soak the Drain/fading

Nobody forces the mage (well, at least in most cases), to summon a force 6 (or higher) spirit. So if he does, he should take a little risk.

(btw: if a few hundred SR Players summon one Force 6 Spirit once per gaming session, odds are that a few get knocked out or killed. High Force Spirits are extremely powerfull, so i like it that way ).

Like Divine virus pointed out, there is always edge (well, most of the time )

that's very nice that force 6 spirits are limited.

but as it stands, summoning (and especially binidng) a force 3 spirit is a potentially dangersous thing to do.

summoning a force 3 spirit you could take 6 drain. binding it you can take up to 12 points. from a force 3.

on the other hand, either one could also cause 2 points of drain (the absolute minimum).

i can't really see how it makes sense that one time you'll take almost nothing, but another time you take enough to knock out almost anyone.

now, i certainly agree that there needs to be limits. players should not be conjuring force 10 spirits at chargen. but i don't feel the solution for that is to make force 3 spirits knock someone out randomly just because they got unlucky.

there are better ways. feel free to reduce the effectiveness of spirits if you like but IMO it shouldn't result in random deaths just because some ridiculously unlikely thing happened. because, over time that ridiculously unlikely event is going to happen over and over.

The rediculously unlikely is where stories are born. Nobody remembers the 50 force 3 spirits you bound with no problem. Everybody remembers the one that knocked you on your ass.

A Force 3 spirit being bound has an ungodly low chance of getting 12 hits. Your summoner (with at least 10 dice in soaking if he's a dedicated summoner) has an ungodly low chance of not getting any hits. So if both of those happen, you've got a 4 body, and for some reason you're taking physical instead of stun, then yeah, you'll die.

But what are you doing trying to bind spirits when your stun meter is full?

Oh wait. No you won't. you'll be knocked into overflow and your friend standing by will stabilize you. That's also assuming you don't feel the need to spend any edge on that test. Or were you also binding things with no edge available on top of a full stun meter?

1) this has to work for everyone. this includes if you have no friends around to help.

2) gee, i wonder where i might have gotten damaged while binding... hmmm, oh, that's right... i just CONJURED a spirit, which causes drain... which damages you.

3) if you wish, you can bump the spirit up to 4, and be dealing with up to 16 damage on binding. or 8 damage on conjuring, which you may very well be doing on a run with some stun damage and some physical damage on you... oops, looks like your last ditch effort to protect the team just ended up killing you randomly, when there was no reasonable expectation of it happening.

but regardless, the point remains... a grade 6 initiate with a magic score of 12 should never be facing 12 drain from a force 3 spirit. that's just ridiculous. neither should a magician with magic 9, or even one with magic 6, imo.

how probable it is for something to happen is irrelevant. i've seen people roll 4 or 5 18s for stats in D&D, and hey, guess what... that's really unlikely too. and not only have i seen it happen, i've seen it happen multiple times. i, myself, once rolled up 4 sets of stats, and came up with the lowest score being 15 (which is really weird, because i've got terrible luck rolling with stats... which is why i much prefer point buy)

so no matter how unlikely it is, on paper, it's going to come up, sooner or later.

You mean, like, gasp, a freak accident?

I'm going to go ahead and bet that Lofwyr's Body is enough higher than his Magic that he's not at any risk of being killed by the drain from any spirit he could summon.

By the book Great Western Dragons have 25 Body and 12 magic so he could summon a Force 24 spirit. The maximum binding drain he could take would then be 96.

In order to not risk death our hypothetical Lowfyr would require a Body of 177. However, one would expect his magic attribute to grow at about the same rate, if not faster. With almost 8 times the body attribute he would also have 8 times the average magic allowing him to summon the Force 24 spirit without physical drain but also raising his limit to Force 192. Now, this Force 192 spirit could potentially cause 784 boxes of physical damage and kill anyone with a Body less than 1553.