Firing two pistols, Scenario and questions Options

[GrinderTheTroll]

So I was play-testing the Gunslinger Adept and was using 2 Smartlinked Colt Manhunters, shotting at 2 targets: Goon A and Goon B.

If my calcs are correct, here's what my dice pools look like for each of the 4 shots:

Agility=5, Pistols=6, Ambidextrious and Smartgun Link. I walked backwards behind my car door, took up Good Cover and started shooting.

Goon A and Goon B are standing in front of the car about 2 meters away. No cover modifiers and lighting was good.

Goon A:
- Shot 1: 11 dice / 2 = 6 dice (no modifiers yet) = 6 dice pool
- Shot 2: 11 dice / 2 = 5 dice (-1 for recoil) = 4 dice pool

Goon B:
- Shot 3: 11 dice / 2 = 6 dice (-2 recoil, -2 2nd target) = 2 dice pool
- Shot 4: 11 dice / 2 = 5 dice (-3 recoil, -2 2nd target) = 0 dice pool

The reduction in dice pool seems really steep to the point any more complicated of a shot would be almost impossible. Simply adding a -2 for cover and -2 for lighting would make the whole test pointless.


Alternatively, using 1 pistol against 2 targets looks more like this:

Goon A:
- Shot 1: 11 dice (+2 smartgun) = 13 dice

Goon B:
- Shot 2: 11 dice (+2 smartgun, -1 recoil, -2 2nd target) = 10 dice


Am I doing something incorrect here or are 2 pistols just not that useful?

Other part of this argument is, the possibilty of Critically Glitching rises for simply shooting at a 2nd target or added cover? I suppose you could realize a CG in that scenario as a gun jam or a richocet, but it seems silly that simply tunring my gun 2 meters over makes the chance of potential ammo explosion (per Explosive ammo) any more of possibility.

Any commets are welcome.

Thanks,

~GTT

[mfb]

did they remove the restriction on using a smartlink with two guns simultaneously in SR4?

[Thanee]

No, and he didn't add it in, as you can see above. ;)

Bye
Thanee

[Butterblume]

Well, there is a -1 modifier for shooting from cover.

Also, you miscalculated the recoil, in the first simple action both guns would have zero recoil, in the second both guns would have -2 (the uncompensated recoil of each gun counts for the other one, since both guns have -1 then, it adds up to -2).


(of course you can use 2 smartlinks at the same time. You just don't get bonus dice)

[James McMurray]

Yes, firing two guns is a huge dice pool reduction, but you're compensating by filling the air with more bullets. Given the power of DV vs. dice pool (assuming you score one net success), it's a decent tradeof.

Tying EX explosions to critical glitches was kinda odd, since it means higher skill = more stable ammunition. But the mechanic was already there, and is easier than trying to toss in another rule that just applies to that ammo, so I don't have a problem with it.

[Ankle Biter]

[Austere Emancipa...]

[Butterblume]

Well, you could hit the lamp post right in front of you (glitch!). The explosion from that one could hurt you, and in extreme cases, let your whole magazin of ExEx explode...

[GrinderTheTroll]

[Austere Emancipa...]

[SL James]

Magic!

[Butterblume]

The explosion or parts of the lamp post might hit your gun ... after all, it's ExEx ;).
But i agree, not every glitch would lead to this.

[James McMurray]

The dual gunman in our SR game has 15 dice, and even he doesn't do it all the time. However, look at the possible damages, assuming your foe has a 4 reaction and does not take full defense.

With 17 dice, two shots you'll get 5.6 successes on shot 1, he'll get 1.3. That's a base DV to soak of 9 with a heavy pistol. Shot two you each lose one die, so .3 successes. Still DV 9 to soak (twice). Body 4 + armor 6 they'll take 12 hits on average.

With 15 dice firing twice you have 8 dice for the first mainhand attack, 6 for the second, 7 dice for the first offhand attack, 5 for the second. Assuming you taken them in most dice to lowest order, you'll get on average 1.3, 1.3, 1.3, and 1.6 net successes on each shot, making him soak DV 6 4 times (assuming no special ammo). Body 4 + armor 6 means they'll take 12 hits on average.

That looks a little odd, so my math may be off slightly somewhere. Special ammo changes things a lot (don't dual wield EX Explosives). You also have more options with multiple guns. For instance, you can never fire more than one gun per round, but if dual wielding can have the choice between two different ammo types without having to change clips (stickshock in one and EX Explosive in the other probably wouldn't be a bad idea).

[nick012000]

They allow you to apply smartgun link boni when duel weilding firearms now. That's a +2 modifier to both shots.

[GrinderTheTroll]

[Jaid]

well, there was that creation a while back... i believe it was a (theoretical, rules extrapolated) four armed troll quad-wielding some kind of heavy machine gun or something, with each gun having really nice recoil comp, blasting full auto wide bursts (so that the target can't dodge).

so there can most definitely be good things resulting from dual-wielding guns... you just have to do it in the right way :P

[Rooks]

Can anyone tell me why actually smartlinked isn't incorporated when using to pistols besides "Thats what the books says?"

[James McMurray]

You mean why it isn't incorporated while dual wielding? It's because the system can't handle the dual inputs. That's an in game reason. Out of game reasons include:

- ease (what happens if just one gun is linked, how do you split that pool)
- balance (if dual wielding is easy there's no reason not to do it)

[GrinderTheTroll]

[James McMurray]

Grinder: very true, but not exactly an answer to the question.

[Voran]

May end up being particularly cheesy, but maybe you could say skill bonuses to gunfighting from adept bonuses stack instead of split with the regular pool. It would make adept gun bunnies more able to do the hong kong gunfu stuff.

[James McMurray]

And as we all know, adept gun bunnies need all the help they can get. ;)

[Voran]

[Edward]

[hobgoblin]

so recoil comp in SR4 make recoil go away for good? not like in SR3 where it went away for that shot but magicaly came back on the next in that phase?