So I was play-testing the Gunslinger Adept and was using 2 Smartlinked Colt Manhunters, shotting at 2 targets: Goon A and Goon B.

If my calcs are correct, here's what my dice pools look like for each of the 4 shots:

Agility=5, Pistols=6, Ambidextrious and Smartgun Link. I walked backwards behind my car door, took up Good Cover and started shooting.

Goon A and Goon B are standing in front of the car about 2 meters away. No cover modifiers and lighting was good.

Goon A:
- Shot 1: 11 dice / 2 = 6 dice (no modifiers yet) = 6 dice pool
- Shot 2: 11 dice / 2 = 5 dice (-1 for recoil) = 4 dice pool

Goon B:
- Shot 3: 11 dice / 2 = 6 dice (-2 recoil, -2 2nd target) = 2 dice pool
- Shot 4: 11 dice / 2 = 5 dice (-3 recoil, -2 2nd target) = 0 dice pool

The reduction in dice pool seems really steep to the point any more complicated of a shot would be almost impossible. Simply adding a -2 for cover and -2 for lighting would make the whole test pointless.


Alternatively, using 1 pistol against 2 targets looks more like this:

Goon A:
- Shot 1: 11 dice (+2 smartgun) = 13 dice

Goon B:
- Shot 2: 11 dice (+2 smartgun, -1 recoil, -2 2nd target) = 10 dice


Am I doing something incorrect here or are 2 pistols just not that useful?

Other part of this argument is, the possibilty of Critically Glitching rises for simply shooting at a 2nd target or added cover? I suppose you could realize a CG in that scenario as a gun jam or a richocet, but it seems silly that simply tunring my gun 2 meters over makes the chance of potential ammo explosion (per Explosive ammo) any more of possibility.

Any commets are welcome.

Thanks,

~GTT

did they remove the restriction on using a smartlink with two guns simultaneously in SR4?

No, and he didn't add it in, as you can see above.

Bye
Thanee

Well, there is a -1 modifier for shooting from cover.

Also, you miscalculated the recoil, in the first simple action both guns would have zero recoil, in the second both guns would have -2 (the uncompensated recoil of each gun counts for the other one, since both guns have -1 then, it adds up to -2).


(of course you can use 2 smartlinks at the same time. You just don't get bonus dice)

Yes, firing two guns is a huge dice pool reduction, but you're compensating by filling the air with more bullets. Given the power of DV vs. dice pool (assuming you score one net success), it's a decent tradeof.

Tying EX explosions to critical glitches was kinda odd, since it means higher skill = more stable ammunition. But the mechanic was already there, and is easier than trying to toss in another rule that just applies to that ammo, so I don't have a problem with it.

Well, you could hit the lamp post right in front of you (glitch!). The explosion from that one could hurt you, and in extreme cases, let your whole magazin of ExEx explode...

Magic!

The explosion or parts of the lamp post might hit your gun ... after all, it's ExEx .
But i agree, not every glitch would lead to this.

The dual gunman in our SR game has 15 dice, and even he doesn't do it all the time. However, look at the possible damages, assuming your foe has a 4 reaction and does not take full defense.

With 17 dice, two shots you'll get 5.6 successes on shot 1, he'll get 1.3. That's a base DV to soak of 9 with a heavy pistol. Shot two you each lose one die, so .3 successes. Still DV 9 to soak (twice). Body 4 + armor 6 they'll take 12 hits on average.

With 15 dice firing twice you have 8 dice for the first mainhand attack, 6 for the second, 7 dice for the first offhand attack, 5 for the second. Assuming you taken them in most dice to lowest order, you'll get on average 1.3, 1.3, 1.3, and 1.6 net successes on each shot, making him soak DV 6 4 times (assuming no special ammo). Body 4 + armor 6 means they'll take 12 hits on average.

That looks a little odd, so my math may be off slightly somewhere. Special ammo changes things a lot (don't dual wield EX Explosives). You also have more options with multiple guns. For instance, you can never fire more than one gun per round, but if dual wielding can have the choice between two different ammo types without having to change clips (stickshock in one and EX Explosive in the other probably wouldn't be a bad idea).

They allow you to apply smartgun link boni when duel weilding firearms now. That's a +2 modifier to both shots.

well, there was that creation a while back... i believe it was a (theoretical, rules extrapolated) four armed troll quad-wielding some kind of heavy machine gun or something, with each gun having really nice recoil comp, blasting full auto wide bursts (so that the target can't dodge).

so there can most definitely be good things resulting from dual-wielding guns... you just have to do it in the right way

Can anyone tell me why actually smartlinked isn't incorporated when using to pistols besides "Thats what the books says?"

You mean why it isn't incorporated while dual wielding? It's because the system can't handle the dual inputs. That's an in game reason. Out of game reasons include:

- ease (what happens if just one gun is linked, how do you split that pool)
- balance (if dual wielding is easy there's no reason not to do it)

Grinder: very true, but not exactly an answer to the question.

May end up being particularly cheesy, but maybe you could say skill bonuses to gunfighting from adept bonuses stack instead of split with the regular pool. It would make adept gun bunnies more able to do the hong kong gunfu stuff.

And as we all know, adept gun bunnies need all the help they can get.

so recoil comp in SR4 make recoil go away for good? not like in SR3 where it went away for that shot but magicaly came back on the next in that phase?

Funny thing is, EX and EX-EX rounds contain no explosives other than the propellent to make it leave the gun at a high rate of speed, it simply turns into a shot round after penetration, making it damage areas not necessarily in the vicinity of the entrance wound and makes a true bugger to remove the round for the Dr. performing the surgury.

Edward, you can start with aptitude and get another die, but it's a bunch more build points for much lower effect, and if you don't do it then you can't get improved ability 4.

There are two rather hefty advantages of dual handguns that people often overlook.

Rather hefty advantage #1: You become the Mookinator. With even one extra initiative pass you fire eight times a turn! Twelve if you have two extra passes! That's 12 mooks getting wound penalties, or a lesser number going down. Even though you have dramatically reduced dice pool, mooks suck and are made to be shot, and thus are unlikely to get out of the way with their mooky little dodge pools.

Rather hefty advantage #2: Say you are fighting some godawful Cyberzombie or Speed freak adept. You can't hit him cause he has a hajillion dice on his reaction+dodge roll and wide bursts are bouncing off him like rain. Moreover he's cutting you so bad you wish you hadn't been cut so bad. Unload on him. You can't hit him for shit (although, hey, maybe you'll get lucky.) but he'll have a -4 penalty when your friend lays some godawful narrow burst action on his shiny metal ass. Rinse and repeat until he stops moving. And maybe for a few actions after that, just to be sure.

Sadly, overall, dual wielding pistols isn't as good as I would like it to be. Of course, I also believe that Chow Yun Fat is the way, the truth, AND the light. And that Hard Boiled and the Killer are sacred texts, so I may be a little biased.

Because your cover restricts your range of movement, albeit only slightly.

Makes kinda sense. Of course, it's a bad thing for the dualwielding posers.

But then, dualwielding posers don't stay behind cover .

It's too hard to slide across waxed floors blasting the bad guys if you're behind cover, so no selfrespecting dual wielding poser would ever think of taking that -1 die penalty.

Use machine pistols, they can have gas vents.

That's the reason why i would allow gas vents on pistols .

But then you're breaking the RAW. Be careful, you may get lynched!

I might come up with something else, which gives a recoil compensation of 1.
The point is, it's just strange that you can shot burstfire with a SMG without recoil, but not a semiautomatic pistol.

As i am sure, was discussed before .

edit: never mind...

Hell, there are IN-GAME examples (Hammerli 620, anyone?) of pistols with gas vents. I personally think it's an oversight, but it's the RAW.

could it be a cut-n-paste error?

Yeah, not everything described on the guns is available for general use. For instance, you can't use the "special chamber design" of the Ares Alpha to give any other gun a +2 recoil modifier, although perhaps you can once the gun design rules come out for SR4.

The cover rule screwing up an attacker's attack seems a little off to me too. Maybe make it a factor of range or something? If the target is closer to you, being behind cover yourself might limit your field of view, since in a way your cover is also his cover, but for some mook standing Medium range or farther in the middle of the street, me partially covered by a mailbox shouldn't have much of an impact on my aim.

I'm currently statting a two guns gun-fu and swords bunny character, and am not sure on what guns to take. My GM has suggested me taking an AVS, but we'd both like you guys' opinion on whether to have it dikoted. Not 100% sure on what the dikote is and how it works either.