A matter of firearm nostalgia... |
A matter of firearm nostalgia... |
Apr 10 2006, 12:11 PM
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#1
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 993 Joined: 5-December 05 From: Crying in the wilderness Member No.: 8,047 |
I started to reminisce about my days playing CP 2020 with the release of .3 and all the shotgun goodness of shotgun cocktails and Arasaka fully auto combat shotgun. Another favorite was the Tri Star pistol.
So in homage here's a simple house rule for heavy guage shotgun shells or otherwise known as the ball bearing shotgun round. This is not a classic duo round as there is three to nine ball bearingings in the shell. Enjoy Stage the damage code up one as in shotgun flechette ammo but treat the intervening armour and barriers as a normal round. The power of the shot decreases according to the set choke of the shotgun as per standard shotgun spread rules. The width spread of the shot is done in half meter insted of full meter increments. 10 rounds cost 50 :nuyen: Simple but effective. I loved scaring my players with these but remember they will end up in there hands at some point. Hope this is useful to some one out there. |
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Apr 10 2006, 02:20 PM
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#2
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Old Man Jones Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,415 Joined: 26-February 02 From: New York Member No.: 1,699 |
Er, these shotgun shells differ from standard steel shot shells how?
And Auto Assault 12 for your full auto shotgun goodness. With 20 round drum. -karma |
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Apr 10 2006, 09:36 PM
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#3
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,401 Joined: 23-February 04 From: Honolulu, HI Member No.: 6,099 |
Oooh that AA12 is nice. Especially with those explosive rounds.
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Apr 10 2006, 09:50 PM
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#4
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Meh. I prefer the CAWS. How can you not love tungsten buckshot that's effective at over 100 meters?
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Apr 11 2006, 12:07 AM
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#5
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,556 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 98 |
Define "effective?" H&K did, after all, try to bring the "effective" 20mm airburst grenade into existence...
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Apr 11 2006, 01:00 AM
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#6
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Alliant Techsystems was responsible for the 20mm munitions, so don't try pinning that on HK. :grr:
It's a 3" brass belted magnum firing tungsten shot. With 00 or 000 buck, the individual pellets would be like .380 Auto bullets, only fired at a far greater velocity. Several of those should still be capable of hurting you at 100 meters. No idea how they managed with choke, though. |
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Apr 11 2006, 09:29 AM
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#7
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Target Group: Members Posts: 94 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Loughborough, UK Member No.: 1,321 |
If you're feeling incredibly sick and wrong, the Firearm Customisation rules do allow you to modify a BF weapon (saaaay, an Enfield AS7 with 50-round drum) to fire FA. Sure, you're taking an additional point of recoil and doubling the uncompensated, but when you've got the requisite Foregrip, Gas Vent IV, Shock Pad and Cyberarm Gyromount to compensate, it doesn't matter too much.
Query: How would you combine the rules for shotgun spread with the rules for searching/covering fire? It'd certainly make it easier- with all that shot in the air you're bound to hit something (even if it's yourself). ;) -JH. |
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Apr 11 2006, 01:45 PM
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#8
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Old Man Jones Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,415 Joined: 26-February 02 From: New York Member No.: 1,699 |
I had a player do that. Let's just say of "non-lethal" ammunition quickly becomes "quite lethal" when full auto comes into play. :D -karma |
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Apr 11 2006, 03:16 PM
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#9
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 993 Joined: 5-December 05 From: Crying in the wilderness Member No.: 8,047 |
Duo meaning two or binary. I did not say these shells did not exist in reality, I said they did not exist in SR. So enjoy. Hmmm fully auto shotguns.... |
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Apr 11 2006, 03:33 PM
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#10
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Target Group: Members Posts: 94 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Loughborough, UK Member No.: 1,321 |
Full-Auto shotguns are a great way of telling your players: Do not approach within 100 metres of this location.
Problems ensue, of course, when the players get hold of this kit and vaporise a gang hideout in a drive-by. As an aside, I've employed the same rules mechanic (flechette damage/spread rules but dealing with armour as regular rounds) for handling dikoted flechettes. Also, considering that shotguns are pretty much designed to fire buckshot, is it conceivable that standard flechette rounds for such a weapon (ie. your standard double-ought buck shell) should be costed as regular ammo as opposed to the extortionate price for fletch rounds? -JH. |
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Apr 11 2006, 03:39 PM
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#11
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 993 Joined: 5-December 05 From: Crying in the wilderness Member No.: 8,047 |
It only a problem when you havnt planned for it ;), FIB forensic labs.....:D
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Apr 11 2006, 04:44 PM
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#12
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Creating a god with his own hands Group: Members Posts: 1,405 Joined: 30-September 02 From: 0:0:0:0:0:0:0:1 Member No.: 3,364 |
that's what standard round ARE. flechette rounds are tungsten(or some other metal) darts. Kinda like this |
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Apr 11 2006, 11:23 PM
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#13
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383 |
I always thought that SR would benefit from less fantasy cartridges and more attention to real ammuntion, such as actual different types of shot for your shotgun instead of having magical flechette meaning "generic shot".
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Apr 11 2006, 11:41 PM
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#14
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,556 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 98 |
*shrug* Okay, HK just advertised it.
What kinds of velocities are we talking here? I'd assume the case design was intended to give the weapon higher operating pressures, so I'm curious what they managed to squeeze out of it. |
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Apr 12 2006, 12:01 AM
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#15
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
No worries, I was just making fun of my own rabid H&K fanboyishness. :) As for the velocity, I can only guess. The pressures will certainly be higher than with basic 3" 12G, but then tungsten shot is also a lot heavier so either that means less pellets or (I think more likely) some velocity is traded in. 9 tungsten 00-pellets weigh in at 1.6-1.8 ounces, which even a normal 3" 12G could fire at ~1200-1300fps. With that kind of load, you'd think the CAWS could manage at least 1400fps -- that'd make for about 350ft-lbs of kinetic energy per pellet at the muzzle, in 9x19mm territory. [Edit]For reference, a basic 12G 2-3/4" 00-buck defense load fires 9 00 pellets weighing 54gr each at 1200fps, which means 173ft-lbs per pellet at the muzzle, and slowing down faster because of lower sectional density.[/Edit] This post has been edited by Austere Emancipator: Apr 12 2006, 12:07 AM |
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Apr 12 2006, 07:45 AM
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#16
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Target Group: Members Posts: 94 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Loughborough, UK Member No.: 1,321 |
As I understand it, 'Regular' ammunition for a shotgun in SR is a slug- if you want to fire buckshot, then by the letter of the rules you have to buy flechette ammunition at ca. 20¥ a shell (away from books so I can't confirm that price). So as I said, when buying shotgun ammo, should 'flechette' shells (in actuality buckshot shells) be costed the same as Regular ammo rather than the extortionate rate? As to actual flechettes in shotguns, this is interesting reading. -JH. |
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Apr 12 2006, 08:53 PM
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#17
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Mostly Harmless Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 937 Joined: 26-February 02 From: 44.662,-63.469 Member No.: 176 |
Considering that there are a lot of conventional 12 gauge buckshot loads that advertise 1,325 fps, I'd definitely say that the CAW would push at least 1,400 fps. I think 1,700-1,800 fps would be possible, looking at how they'd intended to jack up chamber pressures. Here's a head scratcher for you...
He's obviously not talking about the tungsten buckshot load, but still... 2,950 fps? Yikes. |
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Apr 12 2006, 09:53 PM
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#18
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
I was originally going to say "could be anywhere from around 1300 to 1800fps", but then I started worrying about the recoil. 720gr of buckshot at 1800fps from a 9lb weapon would mean a recoil energy of 77.6ft-lbs @ 23.6fps and 6.81lb/s of impulse, assuming a modest 60gr of propellant. Even with an action that's design to reduce felt recoil, that seems pretty hefty.
Yeah, that sounds pretty scary. I guess it couldn't've been very effective or else they'd be using loads like that, but at least you'd think that'd extend the effective range of the CAWS well into the hundreds of meters. |
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Apr 12 2006, 10:13 PM
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#19
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,556 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 98 |
I think your problem at those kind of ranges would be getting the flechettes to stick to a tight enough pattern to make hits reliable.
Nearly 3kfps, though? Damn. :eek: |
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Apr 12 2006, 10:22 PM
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#20
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Firing 200 flechettes in 2.5 seconds, you'd probably hit something. :) |
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Apr 12 2006, 11:12 PM
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#21
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,556 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 98 |
Yeah... your eyebrow on the rear of the scope :P
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Apr 12 2006, 11:14 PM
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#22
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Firing 200 flechettes in 2.5 seconds, who needs a scope? ;)
~J |
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Apr 12 2006, 11:18 PM
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#23
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,556 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 98 |
You don't need it, necessarily, but it's mounted on top of the gun. You want to fire a belted 3" mag on cyclic without shouldering the gun, be my guest... :P
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Apr 12 2006, 11:21 PM
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#24
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Not on any picture of the CAWS I've ever seen. Link?
~J |
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Apr 12 2006, 11:54 PM
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#25
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,556 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 98 |
hkpro.com is a decent picture resource. On further review, they don't *all* have scopes, but the handle was built to mount one.
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