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> A matter of firearm nostalgia...
Pendaric
post Apr 10 2006, 12:11 PM
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I started to reminisce about my days playing CP 2020 with the release of .3 and all the shotgun goodness of shotgun cocktails and Arasaka fully auto combat shotgun. Another favorite was the Tri Star pistol.
So in homage here's a simple house rule for heavy guage shotgun shells or otherwise known as the ball bearing shotgun round. This is not a classic duo round as there is three to nine ball bearingings in the shell. Enjoy

Stage the damage code up one as in shotgun flechette ammo but treat the intervening armour and barriers as a normal round.
The power of the shot decreases according to the set choke of the shotgun as per standard shotgun spread rules.
The width spread of the shot is done in half meter insted of full meter increments.

10 rounds cost 50 :nuyen:

Simple but effective.
I loved scaring my players with these but remember they will end up in there hands at some point. Hope this is useful to some one out there.
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KarmaInferno
post Apr 10 2006, 02:20 PM
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Er, these shotgun shells differ from standard steel shot shells how?

And Auto Assault 12 for your full auto shotgun goodness. With 20 round drum.


-karma
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Voran
post Apr 10 2006, 09:36 PM
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Oooh that AA12 is nice. Especially with those explosive rounds.
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Austere Emancipa...
post Apr 10 2006, 09:50 PM
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Meh. I prefer the CAWS. How can you not love tungsten buckshot that's effective at over 100 meters?
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Shrike30
post Apr 11 2006, 12:07 AM
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Define "effective?" H&K did, after all, try to bring the "effective" 20mm airburst grenade into existence...
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Austere Emancipa...
post Apr 11 2006, 01:00 AM
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Alliant Techsystems was responsible for the 20mm munitions, so don't try pinning that on HK. :grr:

It's a 3" brass belted magnum firing tungsten shot. With 00 or 000 buck, the individual pellets would be like .380 Auto bullets, only fired at a far greater velocity. Several of those should still be capable of hurting you at 100 meters. No idea how they managed with choke, though.
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Blaze
post Apr 11 2006, 09:29 AM
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If you're feeling incredibly sick and wrong, the Firearm Customisation rules do allow you to modify a BF weapon (saaaay, an Enfield AS7 with 50-round drum) to fire FA. Sure, you're taking an additional point of recoil and doubling the uncompensated, but when you've got the requisite Foregrip, Gas Vent IV, Shock Pad and Cyberarm Gyromount to compensate, it doesn't matter too much.

Query: How would you combine the rules for shotgun spread with the rules for searching/covering fire? It'd certainly make it easier- with all that shot in the air you're bound to hit something (even if it's yourself). ;)

-JH.
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KarmaInferno
post Apr 11 2006, 01:45 PM
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QUOTE (Blaze @ Apr 11 2006, 09:29 AM)
If you're feeling incredibly sick and wrong, the Firearm Customisation rules do allow you to modify a BF weapon (saaaay, an Enfield AS7 with 50-round drum) to fire FA.

I had a player do that.

Let's just say of "non-lethal" ammunition quickly becomes "quite lethal" when full auto comes into play.

:D


-karma
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Pendaric
post Apr 11 2006, 03:16 PM
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QUOTE (KarmaInferno)
Er, these shotgun shells differ from standard steel shot shells how?

And Auto Assault 12 for your full auto shotgun goodness. With 20 round drum.


-karma

Duo meaning two or binary. I did not say these shells did not exist in reality, I said they did not exist in SR. So enjoy.
Hmmm fully auto shotguns....
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Blaze
post Apr 11 2006, 03:33 PM
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Full-Auto shotguns are a great way of telling your players: Do not approach within 100 metres of this location.

Problems ensue, of course, when the players get hold of this kit and vaporise a gang hideout in a drive-by.

As an aside, I've employed the same rules mechanic (flechette damage/spread rules but dealing with armour as regular rounds) for handling dikoted flechettes.

Also, considering that shotguns are pretty much designed to fire buckshot, is it conceivable that standard flechette rounds for such a weapon (ie. your standard double-ought buck shell) should be costed as regular ammo as opposed to the extortionate price for fletch rounds?

-JH.
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Pendaric
post Apr 11 2006, 03:39 PM
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It only a problem when you havnt planned for it ;), FIB forensic labs.....:D
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Fix-it
post Apr 11 2006, 04:44 PM
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QUOTE (Blaze)
Also, considering that shotguns are pretty much designed to fire buckshot, is it conceivable that standard flechette rounds for such a weapon (ie. your standard double-ought buck shell) should be costed as regular ammo as opposed to the extortionate price for fletch rounds?

-JH.

that's what standard round ARE. flechette rounds are tungsten(or some other metal) darts.

Kinda like this
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Wounded Ronin
post Apr 11 2006, 11:23 PM
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I always thought that SR would benefit from less fantasy cartridges and more attention to real ammuntion, such as actual different types of shot for your shotgun instead of having magical flechette meaning "generic shot".
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Shrike30
post Apr 11 2006, 11:41 PM
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QUOTE (AE)
Alliant Techsystems was responsible for the 20mm munitions, so don't try pinning that on HK. :grr:


*shrug* Okay, HK just advertised it.

QUOTE (AE)
It's a 3" brass belted magnum firing tungsten shot. With 00 or 000 buck, the individual pellets would be like .380 Auto bullets, only fired at a far greater velocity. Several of those should still be capable of hurting you at 100 meters. No idea how they managed with choke, though.


What kinds of velocities are we talking here? I'd assume the case design was intended to give the weapon higher operating pressures, so I'm curious what they managed to squeeze out of it.
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Austere Emancipa...
post Apr 12 2006, 12:01 AM
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QUOTE (Shrike30)
*shrug* Okay, HK just advertised it.

No worries, I was just making fun of my own rabid H&K fanboyishness. :)

As for the velocity, I can only guess. The pressures will certainly be higher than with basic 3" 12G, but then tungsten shot is also a lot heavier so either that means less pellets or (I think more likely) some velocity is traded in. 9 tungsten 00-pellets weigh in at 1.6-1.8 ounces, which even a normal 3" 12G could fire at ~1200-1300fps. With that kind of load, you'd think the CAWS could manage at least 1400fps -- that'd make for about 350ft-lbs of kinetic energy per pellet at the muzzle, in 9x19mm territory.

[Edit]For reference, a basic 12G 2-3/4" 00-buck defense load fires 9 00 pellets weighing 54gr each at 1200fps, which means 173ft-lbs per pellet at the muzzle, and slowing down faster because of lower sectional density.[/Edit]

This post has been edited by Austere Emancipator: Apr 12 2006, 12:07 AM
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Blaze
post Apr 12 2006, 07:45 AM
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QUOTE (Fix-it)
QUOTE (Blaze @ Apr 11 2006, 03:33 PM)
Also, considering that shotguns are pretty much designed to fire buckshot, is it conceivable that standard flechette rounds for such a weapon (ie. your standard double-ought buck shell) should be costed as regular ammo as opposed to the extortionate price for fletch rounds?

-JH.

that's what standard round ARE. flechette rounds are tungsten(or some other metal) darts.

Kinda like this

As I understand it, 'Regular' ammunition for a shotgun in SR is a slug- if you want to fire buckshot, then by the letter of the rules you have to buy flechette ammunition at ca. 20¥ a shell (away from books so I can't confirm that price). So as I said, when buying shotgun ammo, should 'flechette' shells (in actuality buckshot shells) be costed the same as Regular ammo rather than the extortionate rate?

As to actual flechettes in shotguns, this is interesting reading.

-JH.
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Raygun
post Apr 12 2006, 08:53 PM
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QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
As for the velocity, I can only guess. The pressures will certainly be higher than with basic 3" 12G, but then tungsten shot is also a lot heavier so either that means less pellets or (I think more likely) some velocity is traded in. 9 tungsten 00-pellets weigh in at 1.6-1.8 ounces, which even a normal 3" 12G could fire at ~1200-1300fps. With that kind of load, you'd think the CAWS could manage at least 1400fps -- that'd make for about 350ft-lbs of kinetic energy per pellet at the muzzle, in 9x19mm territory.

Considering that there are a lot of conventional 12 gauge buckshot loads that advertise 1,325 fps, I'd definitely say that the CAW would push at least 1,400 fps. I think 1,700-1,800 fps would be possible, looking at how they'd intended to jack up chamber pressures.

Here's a head scratcher for you...

QUOTE (Daniel E. Watters)
Special Purpose Individual Weapons
While the SPIW/SFR projects were effectively dead, AAI never really gave up on the concept. In June 1978, AAI published the document "Proposal for the Development of Improved Small Arms Fléchette Ammunition." During the Close Assault Weapon System (CAWS) program of the early/mid-'80s, AAI's special 12 Gauge cartridge launched eight large fléchette, each reportedly weighing close to 31 grains, at nearly 1950fps. Olin, in support of HK's CAW, also offered a fléchette load, using twenty much smaller projectiles at a much higher velocity (~2950fps).

He's obviously not talking about the tungsten buckshot load, but still... 2,950 fps? Yikes.
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Austere Emancipa...
post Apr 12 2006, 09:53 PM
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QUOTE (Raygun)
I think 1,700-1,800 fps would be possible, looking at how they'd intended to jack up chamber pressures.

I was originally going to say "could be anywhere from around 1300 to 1800fps", but then I started worrying about the recoil. 720gr of buckshot at 1800fps from a 9lb weapon would mean a recoil energy of 77.6ft-lbs @ 23.6fps and 6.81lb/s of impulse, assuming a modest 60gr of propellant. Even with an action that's design to reduce felt recoil, that seems pretty hefty.

QUOTE (Raygun)
Yikes.

Yeah, that sounds pretty scary. I guess it couldn't've been very effective or else they'd be using loads like that, but at least you'd think that'd extend the effective range of the CAWS well into the hundreds of meters.
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Shrike30
post Apr 12 2006, 10:13 PM
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I think your problem at those kind of ranges would be getting the flechettes to stick to a tight enough pattern to make hits reliable.

Nearly 3kfps, though? Damn. :eek:
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Austere Emancipa...
post Apr 12 2006, 10:22 PM
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QUOTE (Shrike30)
I think your problem at those kind of ranges would be getting the flechettes to stick to a tight enough pattern to make hits reliable.

Firing 200 flechettes in 2.5 seconds, you'd probably hit something. :)
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Shrike30
post Apr 12 2006, 11:12 PM
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Yeah... your eyebrow on the rear of the scope :P
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Kagetenshi
post Apr 12 2006, 11:14 PM
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Firing 200 flechettes in 2.5 seconds, who needs a scope? ;)

~J
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Shrike30
post Apr 12 2006, 11:18 PM
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You don't need it, necessarily, but it's mounted on top of the gun. You want to fire a belted 3" mag on cyclic without shouldering the gun, be my guest... :P
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Kagetenshi
post Apr 12 2006, 11:21 PM
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Not on any picture of the CAWS I've ever seen. Link?

~J
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Shrike30
post Apr 12 2006, 11:54 PM
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hkpro.com is a decent picture resource. On further review, they don't *all* have scopes, but the handle was built to mount one.
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