I had a player do that.

Let's just say of "non-lethal" ammunition quickly becomes "quite lethal" when full auto comes into play.




-karma

Duo meaning two or binary. I did not say these shells did not exist in reality, I said they did not exist in SR. So enjoy.
Hmmm fully auto shotguns....

that's what standard round ARE. flechette rounds are tungsten(or some other metal) darts.

Kinda like this

*shrug* Okay, HK just advertised it.

What kinds of velocities are we talking here? I'd assume the case design was intended to give the weapon higher operating pressures, so I'm curious what they managed to squeeze out of it.

No worries, I was just making fun of my own rabid H&K fanboyishness.

As for the velocity, I can only guess. The pressures will certainly be higher than with basic 3" 12G, but then tungsten shot is also a lot heavier so either that means less pellets or (I think more likely) some velocity is traded in. 9 tungsten 00-pellets weigh in at 1.6-1.8 ounces, which even a normal 3" 12G could fire at ~1200-1300fps. With that kind of load, you'd think the CAWS could manage at least 1400fps -- that'd make for about 350ft-lbs of kinetic energy per pellet at the muzzle, in 9x19mm territory.

[Edit]For reference, a basic 12G 2-3/4" 00-buck defense load fires 9 00 pellets weighing 54gr each at 1200fps, which means 173ft-lbs per pellet at the muzzle, and slowing down faster because of lower sectional density.[/Edit]

As I understand it, 'Regular' ammunition for a shotgun in SR is a slug- if you want to fire buckshot, then by the letter of the rules you have to buy flechette ammunition at ca. 20¥ a shell (away from books so I can't confirm that price). So as I said, when buying shotgun ammo, should 'flechette' shells (in actuality buckshot shells) be costed the same as Regular ammo rather than the extortionate rate?

As to actual flechettes in shotguns, this is interesting reading.

-JH.

Considering that there are a lot of conventional 12 gauge buckshot loads that advertise 1,325 fps, I'd definitely say that the CAW would push at least 1,400 fps. I think 1,700-1,800 fps would be possible, looking at how they'd intended to jack up chamber pressures.

Here's a head scratcher for you...

He's obviously not talking about the tungsten buckshot load, but still... 2,950 fps? Yikes.

I was originally going to say "could be anywhere from around 1300 to 1800fps", but then I started worrying about the recoil. 720gr of buckshot at 1800fps from a 9lb weapon would mean a recoil energy of 77.6ft-lbs @ 23.6fps and 6.81lb/s of impulse, assuming a modest 60gr of propellant. Even with an action that's design to reduce felt recoil, that seems pretty hefty.

Yeah, that sounds pretty scary. I guess it couldn't've been very effective or else they'd be using loads like that, but at least you'd think that'd extend the effective range of the CAWS well into the hundreds of meters.

Firing 200 flechettes in 2.5 seconds, you'd probably hit something.

It does, but I think you might be figuring the payload a bit heavy. Olin's patent for the tungsten buckshot wad (US4815388) states six to twelve pellets with a diameter between 0.6-0.7cm (0.236-0.275"), which would mean #4 to #2 buckshot. The patent regarding the tungsten alloy used (US4428295; directly referenced in the above patent) doesn't state an exact ratio, but suggests a range from 50/50 to 70/30 tungsten/lead. So, near as I can figure, we're looking at a payload that's around 444 grains for twelve #2 buckshot, 50/50. (A 70/30 mix brings the payload mass up to 575 grains.)

In that case, I'm getting 32.6 fpe @ 14.9 fps with an impulse of 4.61 lbs/s (60gr powder, 1800 fps MV, 9.5 lbs gun). Still a good chunk of recoil, but significantly more managable. The CAW appears to be long recoil operated (with the high pressure loads, anyway) and that would take most of the sting out of the recoil, and coupled with the low ROF, could even make burst fire useful. Still, an effective range of 150 meters seems like it's really pushing it.

Yeah. Watters is usually pretty good about fact-checking, but I can't help but question that figure. That's really fast. If they were anything like those listed on the Sabot Designs LLC site, we're talking about something like a 160 grain load. SDLLC talks about 19 flechettes moving at 1950 fps from a slightly higher-than-average pressure 2 3/4" load.

According to the patents, it looks like the flechette loads weren't getting the kind of accuracy they wanted at the ranges they were working at, so they developed the tungsten-lead buckshot load.

Oddly enough, mixed tungsten loads have been getting pretty popular over the last few years for waterfowl hunting on account of their ability to retain energy at longer ranges; Federal's Tungsten-Iron, Kent's Tungsten-Matrix, Remington's Hevi-Shot, etc... So CAWS did lead to something good for the commercial market.

Damn, gotta learn to check the patents. So I guess they went with the "less pellets" instead of lower velocity.

It feels somehow strange on the face of it that the fast, aerodynamic arrow projectiles spread more than shot. The TGZ SPIW-article mentions the same sort of thing, though ("the AAI and Steyr fléchette cartridges were considered to be less accurate than their conventional projectile rivals"). Does the flechette pattern kind of blow out as they start arranging themselves right out of the muzzle, or is there some other effect here that screws the arrow-shaped projectiles?

EDIT: Sorry, that made no sense. Up a little too late last night, got the patents mixed up (I looked at quite a few of them last night).

The tungsten-lead shot was developed to outperform conventional lead-antimony 00 buckshot loads used by the military, not to compete with flechette loads.

Here's another kind of strange sabot design that they had figured out for the CAWS cartridge (US4479438). This one seems to suggest eight 000 buckshot, which would make for a much heavier load (685 grains 50/50). However, of the pictures of the CAWS ammo I've seen, the buckshot loads seem to go along more with the description from US4815388 rather than this one.

I'm not sure if there's much more than this going on, but here's something from another relevant patent: