Roleplayers thinking that they know..., about the stuff they pretend to do Options

[Slamm-O]

i really want to hear some peoples opinions about all these guys who talk about their crack shots and black belts.

this stuff always pisses me off on any board, and after reading a guys post with his laughable belief that he could take 3 normal guys no problem in H2H i knew i had to post this.

Let me tell you a bit about myself first, i do not purport to be bruce lee or mike tyson, but i grew up in a very violent/alienating/over all latch key type environment. I felt that tough guys were the kings of the world and my goal was to be tough. Ive been in many fights, a bare knuckle fighting club and now an amateur boxing club. The thinking that violence solved problems and made a man out of you has had me arrested and incarcerated several times, hanging out with the wrong guys and such (with dead/jailed friends to show for it.) so in short i do not consider myself one of these posuers im asking about.

anyway, ive fought 2 and 3 guys at a time, guys who i considered well below my level of experience, and it was always fing hard (actually fighting them at the same time, not when they stand around bruce lee style or you stun one then fight the other), granted ive never had any multiple opponent specific training. Your green belts are probably not hard core guys, probably little kids or dorky guys who want confidence, they may have a belt but are they strong? experienced? quick? smart? these things make a good fighter (like the 6 you think you are/will be) not just gym work.

Ive never seen a matial artist kick ass, anywhere. Never even heard any credible stories of them doing so (except military martial artists, which admittedly fight in a way most people would associate with brawling/grappling). In UFC the karate and kung fu guys never win, it is the brawlers or wrestlers.

anyway, i dont mean to just attack anyone but that skill 6 stuff was BS.
Please post your opinions on the poll and what i said, im sorry if i didnt explain/have a point. I am busy and am trying to hurry.
later

[Siege]

It depends on the three guys and how well you know your technique.

It's not difficult to kill someone if you really want to -- especially if the other fellow(s) aren't approaching the fight with that mindset or skill set.

I don't know Sphynx personally, so I can't attest to his personal skills or lack thereof.

I do think this thread isn't one particularly relevant to the forum you posted.

Edit: And take the Ultimate fighting with a grain of salt. It's not a "no-holds barred" sort of fight. If it was, the first time a grappler dove low at a muay thai boxer's legs, he'd be eating a face of knee.

-Siege

[252]

I've only gotten into a few fights in my life, never really been in a fight with more then two people. Not saying that I wouldn't hurt multiple opponents I know the chances of survival drop off dramaticly, I'm not even talking about winning I mean surviving the fight just sucks.

What I have done is been part of a group that subdued a person. The guy was large, and tough. Maybe not all that fast, but he had much over my weight. We approached at the same time, I don't think either of us even had any bruises (it was a little while ago), and if we did it was nothing severe.

Oh well I'll stop my little bit of talking. I now that I will get a bunch of people saying that they can drop me. Which I know is the worse way to fight. TTFN

[danbot37]

well, I definitely think there should be a "I will till he can prove it" answer to the poll. You gotta take bragging, true or not, with a grain of salt till you see it proven. I am not gonna say for sure the guy can, but I would still think a lot harder if I had to face him in that situation if he bragged about such things

[Kagetenshi]

The problem with the poll is that it's in reference to DSers, who we can't evaluate one way or another.
I do personally know that a good, combat-oriented martial arts school will churn out a black belt who should be easily capable of taking down all but the most street-hardened fighters. However, the problem with street fighters is that they aren't ranked; IE, you can hold up an example of an "untrained" street fighter who has been fighting for fifteen years and then say that because he beat a black belt who has been fighting for eight years and claim that means that martial arts are crap.
The entire issue is a flamewar waiting to happen, but a good school should be able to turn out a black belt who should be capable of getting to a level to overcome just about anyone on the street.

~J

[Raptor1033]

the problem with most martial arts nowadays is that so much flair has been put into them that they're less efficient. bruce lee saw this and was more than a little disappointed in the turn of events, so he made his own martial art. so the fighting styles that are the most efficient tend to be self-taught brawling (figuring out what works and what doesn't makes you pretty tough), grappling types like jujitsu (specially gracie jujitsu, which emphasizes breaking limbs and joints), and forms like jeet kun do, which emphasizes crazy speed and not letting your opponent attack, period. one of the few schools that teaches gracie jujitsu is in my town and if i can scrape up the time and money i really want to start it up, i've tried a few classes of various forms and the grappling styles just make the most sense for me. but the grappling form i tried was mostly for competition and didn't allow punches or extreme locks, so i didn't really like it that much. i just realize there was no actual point for my thread, i'm just a little hyped up and wanted to babble. :spin:

[Kagetenshi]

At my school, they taught you techniques, yes, but the main focus was on getting people comfortable enough with combat to adapt to something that worked for them. Our forms were nice and pretty, but when it came right down to it it didn't matter if we did the forms perfectly if we weren't able to handle the practical portion of the test.

~J

[CanvasBack]

I don't think it's right to single folks out for harsh treatment on the boards, but In general I'm with Slamm-O on this. Most of us in our gaming experience have encountered "The Expert" and almost every single time the experience is at least somewhat negative, if not infuriating. Martial arts are fine to a point, but when it comes down to crunch time you have to be able to perform on demand and without hesitation and sadly, most people will generally fail at this point. I knew this woman from work who went on and on about her aikido training and I literally had to stifle myself from laughing because if she wasn't sparring against 14 year olds or over-weight, middle-aged guys she as much confessed she would lose in her school's dojo tournaments. But she keeps trying. Anyway, she wanted to be able to protect herself but it's pretty clear by now that against any real threat, she's going to need a .38 in her purse and of course there are downsides to that. Even with training, alot of people just don't have the will to do harm, even when necessary. Street fighting teaches you a very important lesson if you survive it. Second place in a street fight does not mean second best, if you are incapacitated you may not live long enough to regret it, so DO ANYTHING to avoid losing without hesitation. Is that to say a professional martial artist couldn't approach a fight like this as well? Of course not, Zen warriors of old incorporated that understanding, particularly the part about not hesitating. But a commercial martial arts school is not producing the same quality of student as an Asian monastery either...

At a certain point, all the training in the world wouldn't make a difference. If three people are coming after you either pull a gun or run. The game is meant to be more or less cinematic, so if anything, the friends in melee rules are too generous to the out-numbered single combatant. :please:

[Slamm-O]

yeah, looking back at my post it was way too baited. I really feel bad about nameing names, so i took them out.

my main issue is that i have worked very hard in my life to disipline my mind and body and garner experience, it was at one time the most important thing in my life, it was what i did 24/7, and i get frustrated with all these people that i percieve as doing much less than i did claiming to be much better than i feel i ever was, and i never lost a fight uncontested (i.e. in an absolute way, never had all 3 judges say i lost or been KOed), but i never fought any masters or experts im sure.

i would just like these guys who are great with guns and their hands and feet to at least pretend that they have used it in real life, they were in the army, a real fighting league, they hunt often, they are a bouncer, i dont know. Something to make me at least believe these people i will never see arent completely full of bs.

siege: they can and do knee, anywhere, and shooters have been knocked out that way. I have only seen the older ufc, and other pride competitions, where the rules are: tap-outs for crippling holds, no eye gouging, biting, fishhooking .period.

as far as martial arts, the only ones ive ever seen that were really effective were the ones that did not look like martial arts per se. i.e. gracies brazilian judo-thingy, military martial arts, etc. (the non flashy non dancy ones i guess, the ones that are still taught for real fighting, not to build confidence, excercise, etc.)

and as far as the more grappling-intensive styles *which appear highly effective, a la gracie* rely on a lot of manuevering on the ground (or feet) that takes minutes sometimes to subdue your opponent, thus making 2-3 opponents someone like gracies worst nightmare.

plz post your opinions (those of you who study martial arts) on why you believe that your art/sport/style would be efffective in real combat, or please post stories of your prowess, when those years of training did best that cocky street brawler (like me :)
BTW i think CanvaBack has a good take, bottom line is that instinct takes over in a fight (almost all the ones ive been in, and the 1 or 2 where it didnt felt weird, like a dream, surreal yknow?) and instinct is best trained through real adrenaline pumping no holds barred fighting, IMO. but i agree with the rest you said as well, i think.

ciao

[Sphynx]

Well, considering you're talking about me, I guess I'm obligated to post. :P

No, I don't believe most people who talk about Uber skillz, and don't even think I have Uber skillz (I get that proven to me regularly, about.. oh... 3 to 4 times a week), but I do think the roleplaying community has a larger percentage of people who take martial arts than the non-roleplaying community. It's in our nature.

Fortunately, I have no need, nor desire to defend my own skillz to you, if you ever want proof instead of flaming me from a nice safe distance behind your desk, come visit in NL, I'll show you my dojo, my belts, and my techniques against other black belts (they know how to not be hurt by my reactions). That way you can see just what kinda air I'm throwing out my ass. :P

Sphynx

[Slamm-O]

i already apoligized and also took your name out, so i understand that i was flaming you and so you felt obligated to say stuff back, done.

but i want to know now, you believe that you are a SR skill 5 almost 6 and you lose 4-5 times a day? (granted these are probably spars with trainers, so it might mean nothing, and we all feel differently about how sr skill #s correlate to real life ability)

it was nothing to you, i do understand that roleplayers also enjoy to learn the skills that they pretend to have in their games (where they can use them :)) like archery, shooting, sword fighting, martial arts. I think it goes hand in hand with the cool kind of people they generally are.

singling you out wasnt fair, nor my intention. Reading your post (which being one guy saying he is a good-great-whatever martial artist, is totally believable) just reminded me of different threads i have seen, and having just put in a hard day of training for an upcoming boxing match i was a little irritated by the memories it brought up, these people who i felt were are taking credit that belongs to more dedicated, harder working individuals.

i have never read a post online (be it at SR sites, martial arts or gun enthusiast sites or whatever) where the people had a real story of how they used their ability to defend themselves, thus proving their prowess. One thread in particular not only had a bunch of what were probably kids taking kung fu talking about how they kick so much ass, it seemed to degenerate into a support group the unconfident. This because they all started telling their stories where they used their martial art, all of which (im not kidding) involved them being knocked down, punched, pushed, laughed at etc. and their glory story was not fighting back. Why learn it if you dont fight back? that was on another SR board though (the only rpg ive ever played)

my opinion comes down to this: I have always said to myself and others on the question of bravery, 'i dont know, i may be a coward in the face of battle, and if i am i think i can deal with it because i havent put myself up on a pedastol.' So i tire of hearing everyone speak, always thinking they are going to be the hero of this story we call life, they will be the brave one on the beach, the one who confronts the hijackers, the bank robbers, etc. After all some of us have to be the red shirts, the casulties, the masses. And doesnt it taint the memories of our heroes, those who sacrificed or did so much when we all think ourselves their equals?

leave the heroism to the game, isnt that why we play it? and if you want to bring it out in yourself in real life (like so many of us do) then remember it is hard work, not fantastical day-dreams that make men heroes.

[Slamm-O]

double post, soz

[Sunday_Gamer]

I have uber sk33lz and if you offend me I'll smite you with lasers from my nostrils.

I don't really listen when a random ninja starts to regale me with tales of his mighty exploits. If you can take on 3 guys, good for you, if those three guys are standing right next to me and trying to hurt me and you take all three of them well then EXTRA good for you, lemme buy you a beer.

Unless it's immediately relevant, I don't care much for "noshit" stories.

If someone wants to fight me, well they're gonna have to work pretty hard, I'm not really into violence though I have been in a couple fights and quite frankly, am not terribly proud of having hurt other people. Some people definitely need a good ass kicking, but I'll be the guy trying to reach a peaceful solution right up till someone takes a shot at me, then I'll gladly step aside and let one of you ninjas handle it ;) I'm not a sam IRL, I'm a face.

Sunday

[Traks]

Well, hero who kicks one guy's ass usually gets stabbed to death by second.
So best tactic is to avoid any fight and fight to death only if you must.
Also if enemy uses clubs/chains/anything else, it further greatly decreases your chances.

Saying that, no, I am not fighting type much and do not claim being top in shooting/fighting areas. And yes, gun is always more effective and stories about different used weapons is more believable.

And of course, all those stories should be taken with BIG grain of salt.
But that is well known to people who use Internet from time to time :)

[Drain Brain]

I never think anything! Not like that... it would be rude to disbelieve someone's assertation of any prowess based on the fact that I believe such great skill to be unlikely.

Accept what they say. Be happy for them.

And don't piss them off in case it's true...

[Sigfried McWild]

[Kagetenshi]

Again, it depends on your style. Some styles, yes, are basically sports. My dojo was very combat-oriented and practical; most, in this day and age, are not.

~J

[TimeKeeper]

I have VERY limit experince with any type of art.

I've taken about 2 months of TKD when I was 5 (maybe 6), then JKD for about 2 years in middle school, then 4 years of wrestling. Now I'm trying to learn both Kenjutsu and Juijutsu. I have no problem with the sword (though I doubt I could use it sparring yet) but I keep messing up the Juijutsu since my most recent and most trained art is wrestling.

As for the fights, I've only wrestled in a controlled enviroment so I need had the intent to "kill", just disable. Even when someone that I worked with pissed me off so much that I choaked him out, I still had to let go.

(What the guy did was insult my heritage and family-line. Not me or my parents, but my ancestors. I took great offence to that and even asked him to stop, several times. Luckly everyone else that I worked with didn't like him either and I didn't get in trouble.)
For a samurai wannabe like myself I don't know if that's good or bad.


Personally whenever we (weither on forum or on the mailing list) did those "make yourself" characters I always gave myself a 2 or 3 on brawling/grappling. It my peak I was probably a 4 but that's about it.

[The White Dwarf]

I can understand your post Slammo. I have a 1st Dan belt, and also a degree in a some social areas. From that perspective, Ive a few small points. First is that everyone likes to talk big from their perspective. Without going into too much detail, its a common thing for folks who grew up in the states to see things from their point of view because of its inherantly individualistic culture. Thus, some "big talk" is to be expected, especially from US culture. Not good or bad, just how it is. Where you stand on the SR scale is relative to your own opinion of where you stand compared to those you know, and thus is highly relative. But its easy to feel higher than you are, no one likes to have a low self opinion. Psychologically people that are depressed are more likley to see things how they really are, ironically most of the time people in normal mental states have some distortion of reality by default. But the details get sorta complex past that broad description.

Secondly, after getting 1st Dan Ive realized a few things in regards to melee combat. In this case the relative points are that the rank doesnt mean as much as the effort people put into getting it. I can easily whup some folks ranked higher, and a few folks lower can give me a run for my money. Most of the time going through the motions can get you the belt, but actually *working* at it is a huge difference. Those folks that just show up an hour a week or whatever and spar the out of shape guys are getting a different expereince than the folks that practice every day and can spar non-stop for 15 minutes. However, its likley that both will advance at the test because just performing the skills for a test is different from being able to employ them in a real situation.

The other point is that fighting more than one person at one time is vastly harder than it seems it would be. You tend to get things like tunnel vision happening, and when you throw a technique like a punch you open yourself up to a hit. Against one opponent its not as bad, because they have to deal with the incoming strike. But with two folks, you not only have to keep your vision aware, but you have to deal with 8 incoming limbs rather than 4, *and* try and protect yourself against two people. Its tough and tiring. Three people garuntees you will be hit. No one even on full defense can get away from that many limbs without choreographing. Really with more than one opponent the goal changes to simply doing what you need to do to get out of the situation asap. Kicking one guy into the other guy and running is going to do your health a lot more good than sticking it out.

Maybe that all makes sense, maybe not. Oh well I knew what I meant =)

[Sphynx]

[NeO_ZeN]

It's like ninjitsu, the ancient art of assassination, used for self-defense....

:rotfl: LMAO :rotfl:

[TimeKeeper]

It's to my understanding that Ninjitsu is now the *new* Jeet Kun Do.
A little bit of everything. And with us westerner's love of the man in black pajamas, well...

If you want to learn real ninjitsu, well, you're out fo luck.
It's my understanding that you're kinda born into it now a days.
(If they even still exsist. Supossedly my family has a ninja or two in it's closet.
If you want me to tell you the story, PM me.)

[D.Generate]

I've been in my fair share of real fights, hell i was even ice picked by some stupid ass gang banger. And the one thing i've learned is this. You don't need training or a belt to win a fight I've never had any. 60% of any fight is mental, 20% is adrenaline and 10% is maybe skill. I've never been in a fight where there was an absolute winner most of the time they are broken up by cops, friends, or other such authority figures. The only fight i ever considered to have won is the time i only let the guy get in one hit the first one, but of course that was back in 8th grade.

But I do have to agree with slamm-o to many people watch too many movies and believe they can do so much stuff. There was this one guy in our group for a while that every day would have some new bullshit story about leanring to be a ninja had a black belt in this, i still remeber the time he showed up and said he was late becasue he had to go to the police department and register his hands as deadly weapons cause he got some new belt ranking. I think it was an hour before i stopped laughing. I saw that kid trip going up stairs more times then i can remember.

But anyways i'm done ranting , martial arts are a joke i'd put my money on a guy who's only had his training in street fights. Martial arts are fine to look all flashy and cool but hte street fighter won't care how cool you look when he's stomping you head into a curb.

thank you very much I'm here all week..

[Kagetenshi]

I've said it before and I'll say it again and again and again... the combat ability of a black belt depends on the quality of their school.
Or maybe I won't. I'm sick of repeating it; have fun getting your ass handed to you if and when you meet someone who actually deserves their rank.

~J

[rlemansky]

Greetings.

How do skill levels in SR translate into RL? Unless there's a canon guide, I'd suggest something along these lines:

1-Some limited training
2-Consistent training for an extended period of time (not less than five years)
3-Extensive training for over a decade
4-Extensive training plus some field experience
5-Extensive training plus consistent field experience (day to day for a few years)
6-Extensive training plus extensive field experience for over a decade

With becnhmarks like these, where do these braggarts fit in, RL-wise?

Other considerations abound. What particular style is being studied? What is the person's personality like? Both can be classified into Wu-Xing Elements (Fire=aggressive, explosive styles and personalities; Wood=tentative, exploring, probing styles and personalities; etc.), which becomes an Occidental game of rocks-papers-scissors. Any style has weaknesses, any style has counters.

Remember, too that there are a myriad of interpretations of style basics. The descendants of Masaki Haatsumi-Hayes, Bucci and the like-have very different approaches and opinions as to what is right and wrong.

In SR, Unarmed Combat is a skill-succeed or fail, hit or miss. The combat system recognizes size, speed and agility, plus ability-nicely thought out. Some of the actual percentages may be a bit off when it comes to RL, but it IS a game, after all.

I've studied martial arts for twenty years now-started when I was 13. I've learned a lot and been fortunate in that time. One of my sensei (he'd HATE to be called that, though) introduced me to Vunak's Jun Fan JKD. Paul, Bruce Lee, Dan Insonata-all stress finding different practitioners of different styles to spar with and learn from-then takes what works. There are lots of 'sport' styles out there (I've seen way too many time when someone connects and then gets laid out because he was waiting for the ref to call point-in a bar brawl). Styles like JKD train without pads and don't pull punches-you target the shoulder instead of the head so you don't cream your partner, but still... I've trained with lots of folks, I've trained lots of folks. I've been exposed to a variety of styles, my bouncers and guards get exposed to situations daily-the long and the short is:

1.) You can never no what your opponent is capable of (fights, arguments, business meetings)-be prepared for anything and don't get cocky. Never take a knife to a gun fight (and Kung Fu always loses to Gun Fu).

2.)Anything can happen-bad dice roll, miss a stop-hit, it's over. In SR and RL.

Sorry this was so long, but I wanted to put in my two nuyen.

R