i really want to hear some peoples opinions about all these guys who talk about their crack shots and black belts.

this stuff always pisses me off on any board, and after reading a guys post with his laughable belief that he could take 3 normal guys no problem in H2H i knew i had to post this.

Let me tell you a bit about myself first, i do not purport to be bruce lee or mike tyson, but i grew up in a very violent/alienating/over all latch key type environment. I felt that tough guys were the kings of the world and my goal was to be tough. Ive been in many fights, a bare knuckle fighting club and now an amateur boxing club. The thinking that violence solved problems and made a man out of you has had me arrested and incarcerated several times, hanging out with the wrong guys and such (with dead/jailed friends to show for it.) so in short i do not consider myself one of these posuers im asking about.

anyway, ive fought 2 and 3 guys at a time, guys who i considered well below my level of experience, and it was always fing hard (actually fighting them at the same time, not when they stand around bruce lee style or you stun one then fight the other), granted ive never had any multiple opponent specific training. Your green belts are probably not hard core guys, probably little kids or dorky guys who want confidence, they may have a belt but are they strong? experienced? quick? smart? these things make a good fighter (like the 6 you think you are/will be) not just gym work.

Ive never seen a matial artist kick ass, anywhere. Never even heard any credible stories of them doing so (except military martial artists, which admittedly fight in a way most people would associate with brawling/grappling). In UFC the karate and kung fu guys never win, it is the brawlers or wrestlers.

anyway, i dont mean to just attack anyone but that skill 6 stuff was BS.
Please post your opinions on the poll and what i said, im sorry if i didnt explain/have a point. I am busy and am trying to hurry.
later

It depends on the three guys and how well you know your technique.

It's not difficult to kill someone if you really want to -- especially if the other fellow(s) aren't approaching the fight with that mindset or skill set.

I don't know Sphynx personally, so I can't attest to his personal skills or lack thereof.

I do think this thread isn't one particularly relevant to the forum you posted.

Edit: And take the Ultimate fighting with a grain of salt. It's not a "no-holds barred" sort of fight. If it was, the first time a grappler dove low at a muay thai boxer's legs, he'd be eating a face of knee.

-Siege

I've only gotten into a few fights in my life, never really been in a fight with more then two people. Not saying that I wouldn't hurt multiple opponents I know the chances of survival drop off dramaticly, I'm not even talking about winning I mean surviving the fight just sucks.

What I have done is been part of a group that subdued a person. The guy was large, and tough. Maybe not all that fast, but he had much over my weight. We approached at the same time, I don't think either of us even had any bruises (it was a little while ago), and if we did it was nothing severe.

Oh well I'll stop my little bit of talking. I now that I will get a bunch of people saying that they can drop me. Which I know is the worse way to fight. TTFN

well, I definitely think there should be a "I will till he can prove it" answer to the poll. You gotta take bragging, true or not, with a grain of salt till you see it proven. I am not gonna say for sure the guy can, but I would still think a lot harder if I had to face him in that situation if he bragged about such things

The problem with the poll is that it's in reference to DSers, who we can't evaluate one way or another.
I do personally know that a good, combat-oriented martial arts school will churn out a black belt who should be easily capable of taking down all but the most street-hardened fighters. However, the problem with street fighters is that they aren't ranked; IE, you can hold up an example of an "untrained" street fighter who has been fighting for fifteen years and then say that because he beat a black belt who has been fighting for eight years and claim that means that martial arts are crap.
The entire issue is a flamewar waiting to happen, but a good school should be able to turn out a black belt who should be capable of getting to a level to overcome just about anyone on the street.

~J

the problem with most martial arts nowadays is that so much flair has been put into them that they're less efficient. bruce lee saw this and was more than a little disappointed in the turn of events, so he made his own martial art. so the fighting styles that are the most efficient tend to be self-taught brawling (figuring out what works and what doesn't makes you pretty tough), grappling types like jujitsu (specially gracie jujitsu, which emphasizes breaking limbs and joints), and forms like jeet kun do, which emphasizes crazy speed and not letting your opponent attack, period. one of the few schools that teaches gracie jujitsu is in my town and if i can scrape up the time and money i really want to start it up, i've tried a few classes of various forms and the grappling styles just make the most sense for me. but the grappling form i tried was mostly for competition and didn't allow punches or extreme locks, so i didn't really like it that much. i just realize there was no actual point for my thread, i'm just a little hyped up and wanted to babble.

At my school, they taught you techniques, yes, but the main focus was on getting people comfortable enough with combat to adapt to something that worked for them. Our forms were nice and pretty, but when it came right down to it it didn't matter if we did the forms perfectly if we weren't able to handle the practical portion of the test.

~J

I don't think it's right to single folks out for harsh treatment on the boards, but In general I'm with Slamm-O on this. Most of us in our gaming experience have encountered "The Expert" and almost every single time the experience is at least somewhat negative, if not infuriating. Martial arts are fine to a point, but when it comes down to crunch time you have to be able to perform on demand and without hesitation and sadly, most people will generally fail at this point. I knew this woman from work who went on and on about her aikido training and I literally had to stifle myself from laughing because if she wasn't sparring against 14 year olds or over-weight, middle-aged guys she as much confessed she would lose in her school's dojo tournaments. But she keeps trying. Anyway, she wanted to be able to protect herself but it's pretty clear by now that against any real threat, she's going to need a .38 in her purse and of course there are downsides to that. Even with training, alot of people just don't have the will to do harm, even when necessary. Street fighting teaches you a very important lesson if you survive it. Second place in a street fight does not mean second best, if you are incapacitated you may not live long enough to regret it, so DO ANYTHING to avoid losing without hesitation. Is that to say a professional martial artist couldn't approach a fight like this as well? Of course not, Zen warriors of old incorporated that understanding, particularly the part about not hesitating. But a commercial martial arts school is not producing the same quality of student as an Asian monastery either...

At a certain point, all the training in the world wouldn't make a difference. If three people are coming after you either pull a gun or run. The game is meant to be more or less cinematic, so if anything, the friends in melee rules are too generous to the out-numbered single combatant.

yeah, looking back at my post it was way too baited. I really feel bad about nameing names, so i took them out.

my main issue is that i have worked very hard in my life to disipline my mind and body and garner experience, it was at one time the most important thing in my life, it was what i did 24/7, and i get frustrated with all these people that i percieve as doing much less than i did claiming to be much better than i feel i ever was, and i never lost a fight uncontested (i.e. in an absolute way, never had all 3 judges say i lost or been KOed), but i never fought any masters or experts im sure.

i would just like these guys who are great with guns and their hands and feet to at least pretend that they have used it in real life, they were in the army, a real fighting league, they hunt often, they are a bouncer, i dont know. Something to make me at least believe these people i will never see arent completely full of bs.

siege: they can and do knee, anywhere, and shooters have been knocked out that way. I have only seen the older ufc, and other pride competitions, where the rules are: tap-outs for crippling holds, no eye gouging, biting, fishhooking .period.

as far as martial arts, the only ones ive ever seen that were really effective were the ones that did not look like martial arts per se. i.e. gracies brazilian judo-thingy, military martial arts, etc. (the non flashy non dancy ones i guess, the ones that are still taught for real fighting, not to build confidence, excercise, etc.)

and as far as the more grappling-intensive styles *which appear highly effective, a la gracie* rely on a lot of manuevering on the ground (or feet) that takes minutes sometimes to subdue your opponent, thus making 2-3 opponents someone like gracies worst nightmare.

plz post your opinions (those of you who study martial arts) on why you believe that your art/sport/style would be efffective in real combat, or please post stories of your prowess, when those years of training did best that cocky street brawler (like me
BTW i think CanvaBack has a good take, bottom line is that instinct takes over in a fight (almost all the ones ive been in, and the 1 or 2 where it didnt felt weird, like a dream, surreal yknow?) and instinct is best trained through real adrenaline pumping no holds barred fighting, IMO. but i agree with the rest you said as well, i think.

ciao

Well, considering you're talking about me, I guess I'm obligated to post.

No, I don't believe most people who talk about Uber skillz, and don't even think I have Uber skillz (I get that proven to me regularly, about.. oh... 3 to 4 times a week), but I do think the roleplaying community has a larger percentage of people who take martial arts than the non-roleplaying community. It's in our nature.

Fortunately, I have no need, nor desire to defend my own skillz to you, if you ever want proof instead of flaming me from a nice safe distance behind your desk, come visit in NL, I'll show you my dojo, my belts, and my techniques against other black belts (they know how to not be hurt by my reactions). That way you can see just what kinda air I'm throwing out my ass.

Sphynx

i already apoligized and also took your name out, so i understand that i was flaming you and so you felt obligated to say stuff back, done.

but i want to know now, you believe that you are a SR skill 5 almost 6 and you lose 4-5 times a day? (granted these are probably spars with trainers, so it might mean nothing, and we all feel differently about how sr skill #s correlate to real life ability)

it was nothing to you, i do understand that roleplayers also enjoy to learn the skills that they pretend to have in their games (where they can use them ) like archery, shooting, sword fighting, martial arts. I think it goes hand in hand with the cool kind of people they generally are.

singling you out wasnt fair, nor my intention. Reading your post (which being one guy saying he is a good-great-whatever martial artist, is totally believable) just reminded me of different threads i have seen, and having just put in a hard day of training for an upcoming boxing match i was a little irritated by the memories it brought up, these people who i felt were are taking credit that belongs to more dedicated, harder working individuals.

i have never read a post online (be it at SR sites, martial arts or gun enthusiast sites or whatever) where the people had a real story of how they used their ability to defend themselves, thus proving their prowess. One thread in particular not only had a bunch of what were probably kids taking kung fu talking about how they kick so much ass, it seemed to degenerate into a support group the unconfident. This because they all started telling their stories where they used their martial art, all of which (im not kidding) involved them being knocked down, punched, pushed, laughed at etc. and their glory story was not fighting back. Why learn it if you dont fight back? that was on another SR board though (the only rpg ive ever played)

my opinion comes down to this: I have always said to myself and others on the question of bravery, 'i dont know, i may be a coward in the face of battle, and if i am i think i can deal with it because i havent put myself up on a pedastol.' So i tire of hearing everyone speak, always thinking they are going to be the hero of this story we call life, they will be the brave one on the beach, the one who confronts the hijackers, the bank robbers, etc. After all some of us have to be the red shirts, the casulties, the masses. And doesnt it taint the memories of our heroes, those who sacrificed or did so much when we all think ourselves their equals?

leave the heroism to the game, isnt that why we play it? and if you want to bring it out in yourself in real life (like so many of us do) then remember it is hard work, not fantastical day-dreams that make men heroes.

double post, soz

I have uber sk33lz and if you offend me I'll smite you with lasers from my nostrils.

I don't really listen when a random ninja starts to regale me with tales of his mighty exploits. If you can take on 3 guys, good for you, if those three guys are standing right next to me and trying to hurt me and you take all three of them well then EXTRA good for you, lemme buy you a beer.

Unless it's immediately relevant, I don't care much for "noshit" stories.

If someone wants to fight me, well they're gonna have to work pretty hard, I'm not really into violence though I have been in a couple fights and quite frankly, am not terribly proud of having hurt other people. Some people definitely need a good ass kicking, but I'll be the guy trying to reach a peaceful solution right up till someone takes a shot at me, then I'll gladly step aside and let one of you ninjas handle it I'm not a sam IRL, I'm a face.

Sunday

Well, hero who kicks one guy's ass usually gets stabbed to death by second.
So best tactic is to avoid any fight and fight to death only if you must.
Also if enemy uses clubs/chains/anything else, it further greatly decreases your chances.

Saying that, no, I am not fighting type much and do not claim being top in shooting/fighting areas. And yes, gun is always more effective and stories about different used weapons is more believable.

And of course, all those stories should be taken with BIG grain of salt.
But that is well known to people who use Internet from time to time

I never think anything! Not like that... it would be rude to disbelieve someone's assertation of any prowess based on the fact that I believe such great skill to be unlikely.

Accept what they say. Be happy for them.

And don't piss them off in case it's true...

Again, it depends on your style. Some styles, yes, are basically sports. My dojo was very combat-oriented and practical; most, in this day and age, are not.

~J

I have VERY limit experince with any type of art.

I've taken about 2 months of TKD when I was 5 (maybe 6), then JKD for about 2 years in middle school, then 4 years of wrestling. Now I'm trying to learn both Kenjutsu and Juijutsu. I have no problem with the sword (though I doubt I could use it sparring yet) but I keep messing up the Juijutsu since my most recent and most trained art is wrestling.

As for the fights, I've only wrestled in a controlled enviroment so I need had the intent to "kill", just disable. Even when someone that I worked with pissed me off so much that I choaked him out, I still had to let go.

(What the guy did was insult my heritage and family-line. Not me or my parents, but my ancestors. I took great offence to that and even asked him to stop, several times. Luckly everyone else that I worked with didn't like him either and I didn't get in trouble.)
For a samurai wannabe like myself I don't know if that's good or bad.


Personally whenever we (weither on forum or on the mailing list) did those "make yourself" characters I always gave myself a 2 or 3 on brawling/grappling. It my peak I was probably a 4 but that's about it.

I can understand your post Slammo. I have a 1st Dan belt, and also a degree in a some social areas. From that perspective, Ive a few small points. First is that everyone likes to talk big from their perspective. Without going into too much detail, its a common thing for folks who grew up in the states to see things from their point of view because of its inherantly individualistic culture. Thus, some "big talk" is to be expected, especially from US culture. Not good or bad, just how it is. Where you stand on the SR scale is relative to your own opinion of where you stand compared to those you know, and thus is highly relative. But its easy to feel higher than you are, no one likes to have a low self opinion. Psychologically people that are depressed are more likley to see things how they really are, ironically most of the time people in normal mental states have some distortion of reality by default. But the details get sorta complex past that broad description.

Secondly, after getting 1st Dan Ive realized a few things in regards to melee combat. In this case the relative points are that the rank doesnt mean as much as the effort people put into getting it. I can easily whup some folks ranked higher, and a few folks lower can give me a run for my money. Most of the time going through the motions can get you the belt, but actually *working* at it is a huge difference. Those folks that just show up an hour a week or whatever and spar the out of shape guys are getting a different expereince than the folks that practice every day and can spar non-stop for 15 minutes. However, its likley that both will advance at the test because just performing the skills for a test is different from being able to employ them in a real situation.

The other point is that fighting more than one person at one time is vastly harder than it seems it would be. You tend to get things like tunnel vision happening, and when you throw a technique like a punch you open yourself up to a hit. Against one opponent its not as bad, because they have to deal with the incoming strike. But with two folks, you not only have to keep your vision aware, but you have to deal with 8 incoming limbs rather than 4, *and* try and protect yourself against two people. Its tough and tiring. Three people garuntees you will be hit. No one even on full defense can get away from that many limbs without choreographing. Really with more than one opponent the goal changes to simply doing what you need to do to get out of the situation asap. Kicking one guy into the other guy and running is going to do your health a lot more good than sticking it out.

Maybe that all makes sense, maybe not. Oh well I knew what I meant =)

It's like ninjitsu, the ancient art of assassination, used for self-defense....

LMAO

It's to my understanding that Ninjitsu is now the *new* Jeet Kun Do.
A little bit of everything. And with us westerner's love of the man in black pajamas, well...

If you want to learn real ninjitsu, well, you're out fo luck.
It's my understanding that you're kinda born into it now a days.
(If they even still exsist. Supossedly my family has a ninja or two in it's closet.
If you want me to tell you the story, PM me.)

I've been in my fair share of real fights, hell i was even ice picked by some stupid ass gang banger. And the one thing i've learned is this. You don't need training or a belt to win a fight I've never had any. 60% of any fight is mental, 20% is adrenaline and 10% is maybe skill. I've never been in a fight where there was an absolute winner most of the time they are broken up by cops, friends, or other such authority figures. The only fight i ever considered to have won is the time i only let the guy get in one hit the first one, but of course that was back in 8th grade.

But I do have to agree with slamm-o to many people watch too many movies and believe they can do so much stuff. There was this one guy in our group for a while that every day would have some new bullshit story about leanring to be a ninja had a black belt in this, i still remeber the time he showed up and said he was late becasue he had to go to the police department and register his hands as deadly weapons cause he got some new belt ranking. I think it was an hour before i stopped laughing. I saw that kid trip going up stairs more times then i can remember.

But anyways i'm done ranting , martial arts are a joke i'd put my money on a guy who's only had his training in street fights. Martial arts are fine to look all flashy and cool but hte street fighter won't care how cool you look when he's stomping you head into a curb.

thank you very much I'm here all week..

I've said it before and I'll say it again and again and again... the combat ability of a black belt depends on the quality of their school.
Or maybe I won't. I'm sick of repeating it; have fun getting your ass handed to you if and when you meet someone who actually deserves their rank.

~J

Greetings.

How do skill levels in SR translate into RL? Unless there's a canon guide, I'd suggest something along these lines:

1-Some limited training
2-Consistent training for an extended period of time (not less than five years)
3-Extensive training for over a decade
4-Extensive training plus some field experience
5-Extensive training plus consistent field experience (day to day for a few years)
6-Extensive training plus extensive field experience for over a decade

With becnhmarks like these, where do these braggarts fit in, RL-wise?

Other considerations abound. What particular style is being studied? What is the person's personality like? Both can be classified into Wu-Xing Elements (Fire=aggressive, explosive styles and personalities; Wood=tentative, exploring, probing styles and personalities; etc.), which becomes an Occidental game of rocks-papers-scissors. Any style has weaknesses, any style has counters.

Remember, too that there are a myriad of interpretations of style basics. The descendants of Masaki Haatsumi-Hayes, Bucci and the like-have very different approaches and opinions as to what is right and wrong.

In SR, Unarmed Combat is a skill-succeed or fail, hit or miss. The combat system recognizes size, speed and agility, plus ability-nicely thought out. Some of the actual percentages may be a bit off when it comes to RL, but it IS a game, after all.

I've studied martial arts for twenty years now-started when I was 13. I've learned a lot and been fortunate in that time. One of my sensei (he'd HATE to be called that, though) introduced me to Vunak's Jun Fan JKD. Paul, Bruce Lee, Dan Insonata-all stress finding different practitioners of different styles to spar with and learn from-then takes what works. There are lots of 'sport' styles out there (I've seen way too many time when someone connects and then gets laid out because he was waiting for the ref to call point-in a bar brawl). Styles like JKD train without pads and don't pull punches-you target the shoulder instead of the head so you don't cream your partner, but still... I've trained with lots of folks, I've trained lots of folks. I've been exposed to a variety of styles, my bouncers and guards get exposed to situations daily-the long and the short is:

1.) You can never no what your opponent is capable of (fights, arguments, business meetings)-be prepared for anything and don't get cocky. Never take a knife to a gun fight (and Kung Fu always loses to Gun Fu).

2.)Anything can happen-bad dice roll, miss a stop-hit, it's over. In SR and RL.

Sorry this was so long, but I wanted to put in my two nuyen.

R

I was being facetious.....

Regardless, my view on all martial arts/any-form-of-combat is that most people grade themselves on their various belts and trophies, their plaques, scrolls, certificates, and well, that's a little antithetic.

No true martial art guru would talk about their abilities, their abilities would speak for themselves (bit hard on an electronic forum I know). The only context they'd be talking about themselves and their experiences is to teach their Way to a student.

Read Musashi by Eiji Yoshikawa.
Better yet, read the Go Rin No Sho.


Edit : I'm not referring to anyone from DS.

Actually we're pretty much set on the combat stuff.

Our group includes one ex army, and several hunters. Most of us have at least 1 gun in the house that the person knows how to use. All of us except 1 have done at least one martial art(the one looks like a troll and works great on intimidation alone.) and 2 were fencers. To our credit we have several muggers piled up and, shades of the hgost dance war, 4 of them tell a story of being attacked by indians on a camping trip.

Combat stuff...
I know how to handle a bow pretty good and fletching an arrow is still in my fingers and hands (though rusty they may be). Swords, been training one year with a sword, though the skill is pretty much rusted away.
How to handle myself in a fight?? Don't know, 2 or so yrs of Thaiboxing should do something to the guy/girl, but how much I don't know. I've never been in a real fight, so I can't tell how I will react. I know how I react when somebody provokes me enough, but that is another tale and neither here nor there...
I prefer not fighting, but sometimes a girl must defend herself. I am big (I am kinda tall) enough that most girls back down (and gets verbally abusive instead ).

With guns I am all SNAFUed. I know how it works theoretically and technically, but I've never been on the range with a gun.
I have hunted before I got kids, but that it ages back. But I do know how to skin an animal of any kind and how to prepare it (taking out the intestines and stuff). I prefer the ligaments of cats or dogs for my bowstring, though deer ligaments and horsehair are neat as well.

What I do know is my bow and arrows: how to make one, how to fletch arrows and arrowheads from flint or metal and how to keep it from harm.
That is all I know of combat stuff.
I have no delusions about how I will react in a fight; I'll either freeze or become a banshee. With my knowledge of me; Banshee, but I may be mistaken.

Sorry, didn't want to create such a lengthy post, but I will concur with Slamm-O. I've seen too many table ninjas and practitioners BS'ing eachother to take it all seriously. Especially when someone is vying for a girl's attention...
There are other criterias that I weigh against. Eyes, mouth, body movement, thoughtprocesses, speed...
Arrgh, even longer post... I'll stop now..

It depends on whether said person is claiming they can beat the shit out of all three oponents, and at the end of it stand over their broken bodies and laugh maniacly, or whether they just mean they can fight them off sufficiently that they can make a break for it and run. In the first case, I'd call bullshit on anyone who can claim that - having been in a fight with three guys - who came at me one at a time initially - I can say this; firstly it's bloody hard work, especially once they start double teaming (there's rarely enough room for three of them to take you on at once as long as you're standing), second, you don't have time to think about fancy-shmancy moves, you'll kick, punch, scratch, bite, pull and squeeze anything that'll give you the edge, you'll definately regret or feel nasty about some of the things you did and ask yourself 'shit, did I really do that?!' afterwards, thirdly while doing all this there will be two things on your mind, 1 look for an opportunity to escape, 2, staying on your feet; subconciously you'll be on one mode - really hurt the other guy (since you can only really concentrate on one at a time); when you're outnumbered pulling punches isn't an option, you just want them off your back so you can get away, or move onto the next one. If you can stay in the game long enough to beat all three down, kudos to you, you can obviously take a beating better than Homer Simpson, because no one is quick enough to keep dodging punches and kicks from more than one person.

I'll admit now that I have no formal fighting training, my training was from an ex-para (Falklands Vet so knows what he's talking about) who over a few weeks tought us some very dirty fighting moves, and the essential jist is this 'in hand to hand fighting, do anything that will give you the upper hand,' whether it's punching to the throat, stamping on knees (the side is best), or kicking the other guy in the balls, as long as it means you win, it's all good. That sort of 'no holds barred' fighting is not tought at martial arts schools, going from my friends who have had martial arts training, it all seems a bit too namby pamby and thought process requiring to be of any real use in a fight that involves more than one opponent. All that in mind however, I'm sure the gymnastic element of some martial arts is of great use in a mellee, and any edge from martial arts training that anyone has must come from that imho, because it keeps you on your feet and makes you able to reach places the less flexible amongst us can't.

On guns...

Anyone can use a gun, that's the sole advantage they had over bows, and is why they made them obsolete. Ten minutes training, and absolutely anyone (eye site problems corrected for) should be able to hit a 2" group with 5 rounds from a rifle from 50 yards. At 100 yards you should at least be hitting the target with all 5 rounds, at 200 yards, you should be hitting with one or 2 rounds, beyond that and you can barely see the thing without a scope anyway, so you either wait, get a scope, spray a burst or two in the general direction, or ask the guy with the LMG or
GPMG to deal with it. With troops in DPM these days, not to mention covered with twigs, grass and bracken - if you can seriously pick someone out at 200+ yards you probably don't have to worry about them shooting you.

What? You mean message boards are probably frequented by people who spend hours on computers everyday, not handsome, popular, deadly ex-green-beret Mensa members?

Phallus-waving is not new, nor unique to Dumpshock. It has long been a feature of newsgroups and bullentin boards devoted to "that other game," not to mention in bars in RL.

Folks are full of it, in general.

Gonna have to disagree. We were taught at my dojo to do anything we needed to to end a fight quickly, and we had more than a few techniques for ending it before the opponent knew it was starting. Testes were a valid target, throat is my personal favourite target, and none of the sensei batted an eye when after throwing an opponent to the ground in a technique I put as the finish about ten punshes to the face. Once it was commented on, but only in that on some surfaces I could injure my hand by hitting the opponent's forehead as his or her head bounced back off of a hard surface.

~J

Why is this even a discussion though? First off, it doesn't belong on this Forum as it has nothing to do with Shadowrun, and secondly, do you question when someone says they're an EMT, Programmer, Etc? People have hobbies, and people that hobby roleplaying tend to have lotsa hobbies of which martial arts and hunting are common.

The original post said someone could 'take on' 3 to 4 'basic' guys at once, and that's precisely what some MA's are all about, especially Aikido. It also said that the 3 couldn't 1-round a 'World Class Black Belt Master' of an art.

Now despite what any of you believe, a person CAN take on 3 to 4 people at once, I know that from an experience fact. Now, I admit that they didn't all hit me at precisely the same time, the first guy attacked before the others even knew for sure they were going to do anything, and he literally became a shield for me and I sustained one solid punch to my cheek bone which made me cry (if you think you wouldn't have tears from knuckles cracking on your cheek bone, you're crazy), but all 4 ran away with me still standing. Considering I don't consider myself a 'master' at all, I think that it would have been cake-work for any of my old masters/sensei to have easily handled the situation and probably not even been hit.

But none of that matters, you don't have to choose to believe any of what I or other people say, that's your call. But please (this is not to you Slamm-O, this is to the long list of people still calling people like me a liar on your thread) don't flame what you don't know shit about.

Sphynx

I didn't call that, I was in a similar boat, I was jumped by 3 guys, I fought one off - throwing him to the ground and giving him a damn good hiding, before taking a kick to the mouth from one of the other guys - I got away because the third guy at some point realised the first was in a bad way and called the other guy's attention giving me chance to run. As I say, fighting them off is one thing, beating them all to the ground is quite another...

i have a friend with marines fighting training that got jumped by 3 hicks, on with a bat. he punched the one with the bat in the face, took the bat, and proceeded to beat them all with it. not pretty at all. course this was against people with no actual training but it does prove a small point. i think...

Seems like this thread has attracted a pretty realistic mix of people, despite the general complaint of phallus-waving. Actually, my take is that there are just a few loudmouthed BSers on the boards who get extra attention, but mostly, people are legit. You can tell from these conversations that people have a mostly realistic view of themselves and their experiences. You've even got a few gritty stories of "funny things that happened on the way to the office".

One thing I thought was interesting... someone posted their idea of what skill ratings correspond to. Over five years training but no field experience kicked in at a skill of 2, and for a skill of 6, they wanted to see over 10 years of training and over 10 years of day-to-day field experience. Damn! I bet there is a pretty short list of such people in the world. In my speciality, I can count them on one hand. Wild to imagine my character being THAT good, or even better. I've always imagined much lighter standards for those skill numbers. What I might have called a skill of 6, that earlier post would have benchmarked at a 2!

--K

Sphynx, I need to see how people move when they walk, their reaction patterns, etc.
BS walks, Body talks - if you will forgive me twisting an old maxim.
You must admit it is very easy to sit behind a screen and BS people.

I've met too many table ninjas and table practitioners (I thought that it was evident what I meant) to believe people instantaneously and if I have offended you, I am sorry. bow of respect

As I've stated; I need to see how people move, their reactionpatterns, etc.
If I ever called you a liar, you would know.

Darkest angel the point of trianing regulalry is that your body acts without having to think about it. that's what gives the martial arts type the egde- not that they can fling an O'soto gari text book cleanly, but that they start to move without thinking about it. One friend of mine was mugged in the subway. She didn't freeze and she didn't go all Bruce Lee on the guy, but she did act without thinking- she jammbed her umbrella into his throat.
As for martial arts being whimpy in training, the beginers don't get the serious stuff early on. When I started judo the first throw I was shown was a hip throw. Nice basic, pick 'em up and drop 'em. It was only when I started training for a brown belt was I shown the follow through, that after dropping them you pull, lock, break the arm of the guy you threw.

Sure any gimp can be show to point and shoot in a few minutes, but to shoot well, repeatedly takes practice. A regualar shooter has all the little details fine tuned already and doesn't have to think.

I know the fencers in our group, that haven't competed in a few years have said when they work with kids of the HS team, they have the moves, but their speed/reactions are not what they once were because they don't practice the moves regularly anymore.

Again HW, that was a one on one event, it's totally different psychologically when you're being beaten on by 3 people. You simply cannot react quickly enough to cope with 3 people, because in essence you are fighting something that's moving and reacting 3 times faster than you ever could. Sure, with martial arts training you learn to react 'in the right way', but I can give you a cast iron guarantee that a martial artist will not use his fancy moves anything like as cut and cleanly, if even at all in a real fight, at best he'll show a messy adrenaline driven rough cut of one or two moves when fighting for his personal safety, as oppose to the nice clean cut moves he'll show you on the mat as his club. The reason for this is purely the adrenaline and instinct that kicks in when your wellbeing is on the line - something that simply does not happen when you're trying to impress judges, and you have a nice soft padded mat to land on if you screw up.

I'm not saying being a black belt in Kung Fu doesn't help, because it does, but taking on multiple opponents is so radically different from a one on one that it's a long way from being the be all and end all to crush your opponents into so much goo.

Table Ninjas
I think we all know a "table ninja" or two -- someone who not only has done _Everything_ you have, but has done it better and faster than anyone else.

These are braggers who feel the need to be the center of attention and tell equally tall stories about their mythical exploits -- if its martial arts, they studied with Bruce Lee. If it's military history, they spent time in the Green Berets doing covert ops in South America. And so on, etc. etc.

Unarmed Combat and skill rankings
As for the relative skill rankings -- 6 is the highest that a starting character can have in any skill. 7 if you specialize. Depending on how the dice fall, six dice aren't much better than three or four although the chances of doing someting _in game_ gets better as the gap widens. Which is why phys ads are so dangerous.

Martial Arts
UFC -- permit me to rephrase. If a Muay Thai boxer gets a rising knee into someone's face as they dive for the boxer's legs, odds are the target's neck is going to get broken. If the boxer makes a full strength strike and doesn't refrain for obvious reasons.

Anyone can take a martial arts class. This doesn't translate into "Aikido 4" or "Karate 3". Knowing the moves and techniques doesn't equate into skill. The aikido woman bragging about her classes made that mistake.

Hot Wheels pointed out quite nicely that the physical and mental conditioning must follow the technique. As Kage pointed out, some schools teach this and some don't.

Schools have drifted from the true purpose of martial arts and turned the concept into sports or philosophical actions. Judo was (and is) a sport. This does not mean it can't be combat effective, but it's history was not defined as such. In fact, higher level Judo students do learn non-sport applications but the focus of their learning is not combat or killing.

Some styles focus on killing and incapacitating someone in the shortest time possible. Some styles focus on teaching those skills to a student in the shortest amount of time possible. Some don't -- cultural differences manifest in this regard. Not to get on a tangent, but Japanese styles tend to take longer to develop the skills because it's a life-long pursuit (samurai) whereas Filipino culture didn't emphasize or support a warrior caste, so escrima and arnis are skills that are simple and relatively easy to learn and master.

Summation
Alright, I think I'm done venting.

-Siege

My school has a section of training dealing with the realistic multiple attacker problem, which as you said is a wholly different thing than the single attacker problem. It gives a few additional opportunities too, but it gives a lot more problems.

We start exposing people to this training after say 5 or 6 years of skill and proof that they can survive a very realistic fight at real speed against an uncooperative attacker. In the best case scenario, it takes about 10 years for someone to reach the ability to realistically and consistently handle multiple skilled attackers. However, it is widely acknowledged that many people who train will never get that good. We have plenty of active 15+ year veterans that are not this good.

That said, as the street stories above show, if some of the attackers aren't quite so skilled -- or more importantly, aren't quite so committed -- a person with much less experience and a vicious streak can get the job done. And luck factors in to things also -- I've seen people with 1 year of experience just get the timing perfect by freak chance. I've seen 20 year masters make mistakes at just the wrong moment and get hit hard. There are no iron-clad guarantees -- just varying odds.

--K

I'm a brown belt Aikidoka. I trained pretty hard for four years or so, a bit less seriously of late. I know my shit; I'm not the best but not the worst either. And if someone with a clue jumped me - to say nothing of a bunch of people! - I've no illusions - I'm sure they'd likely kick my ass, martial artist or not.

I can fire a gun pretty well, pistol or rifle. I've spent time at the range with a variety of firearms. I can load 'em, clean 'em, and fire 'em, and I can almost do the cool dual pistols trick accurately. If I had a gun and wanted to shoot someone, I don't know if I could do it. Probably not, without a real serious reason.

I guess I'm just skeptical about a lot of the talk I sometimes see around here. I'm sure some of you are maybe justified in your badass-ness - but for me, I just do these things for fun. I like Aikido, it's a good workout and it's calming and enjoyable. I like firing guns, and was surprised how Zen it is. But I'm not a Warrior of Legend, I'm just a guy who's into these things.

Personally I don't even know why these discussions keep coming up. What relevance does your ninja-hood have to the game we all play called Shadowrun? I mean, sure, assign yourself a skill. Arbitrarily. And then run the numbers and see if you, given your arbitrary skill, could win in a fight against other folks of arbitrary skill. But in my opinion it's irrelevant. You can't justify the rules that way, nor can you invalidate them. What point is there?

I don't think the conversation even has to do with Shadowrun. Like you said, it's irrelevant to the game and the rules of it.

I think there is a constant conversation somewhere on this board where street-fighters say, "Can martial artists seriously do what they claim they can? I doubt it, based on my experiences." And martial artists chime in and say, "No, really, we can do it!" or at least, "Some of us can do it."

So it's more about "what's possible" than "what's needed" or "what matters for the game". It's a conversation that has to do with people's vision of how reality works. It's almost a theological debate.

--K

My call on this topic is that everything changes when its _real_.

You could be Bruce Lee when your opponent is another student, because there is no real fear going on. You know he is not going to hurt you badly when you go down. You know he isn't going to pull a knife if you are not an easy win. You know he won't kill/rape/rob your SO if you don't stop him.

I fully agree with D.Generate's math on the fighter mental state being at least 60%. All else equal, I believe the fighter who is more of a SOB will usually win. You hesitate less when you don't care about the oponnent. At all. Even less when you don't care about yourself.

So, you never know how you will react until it is real. All training, no matter how realistic, is still _training_.

Strictly traditional aikido techniques do not have kicks, punches, etc.

Some schools do teach the basics of punches and kicks (or so I am told).

This is not to say that a creative person couldn't adapt what was intended as a defensive technique into an act of aggression.

Part of the problem is that people don't approach selecting a martial art logically:

1. Ask yourself: "What do I want to get out of this?"
2. Research the considered style
3. Does the style meet your expectations?

More times than not, the student will take a few lessons and assume they know enough to defend themselves. Or worse, they'll watch Hollywood and learn from that. The same thing with firearms. Please don't learn how to operate and handle firearms by watching movies. I don't think Darwin has enough bullets to go around.

-Siege

as far as fighting 2-4 people, like i play in shadowrun im assuming they are all atcually fighting you (i.e. spent a complex action in sr to attack you before i give any friend in mell modifiers, if your friend is standing right next to you when a guy attacks you he is not helping you) so most of these stories where the guy does take 2-4 guys is a story of him fending them off, usually by making an example of one of them before the others fight him.

i agree that this is the way to fight groups of men/women. Go berzerk and frighten your opponents with an indominable spirit.

That's what I've always been taught for multiples; totally rail on one guy. That does 2 things - one, it has the potential to freak the crap out of the others, and more importantly it allows you to step out of the circle.