Slamm-O, I'm going to give you the ultimate compliment here: You sound exactly like a character one of my players once had. "You going to dance all day, or are we going to fight?", was his trademark line, typically before he laid a Yak out for the next week or so. The player took great pride in sticking with Brawling all the way up to skill level 11 (Before he retired the character). So yeah.... you, my friend, are a Shadowrun character.

F it.

I have, personally, had training for a total of just over four years. I may not be great, but I use what I have at hand, whether it be my trusty mechanical pencil, or the shoe I just stole off of you (No rhyming intended...), or even the garbage can sitting down the hall a bit.

My official training was about three years of Tae Kwon Do. It got me into the basics, got me a bit of confidence, and also started my metabolism. Just recently I studied Okinawan Ninjutsu. Yes, yes, I know, you're all going to call me on bs, and say that you can't learn it here. All of Ninjutsu? Legally? No. I did learn, and get a few print outs of, a few things that most people would never think about.

I can say that, whether or not I stay in form, I can effectively disable them from many different areas. Most of the time this is done entirely by use of pressure points (Which I'm sure most of you hardcore fanatics will recognize as Dim Mak.) and the key energy lines of your body. If done correctly, what the form can do is deadly to the victim. If done incorrectly, what the form can do is deadly to the user. That is one reason to not even mess with things like Dim Mak unless you are absolutely, 100% perfect in all areas of it.

I can say, without any reason of a doubt, that I would lose in a street fight. I don't even want to go to a group fight. If it comes down to it, I'm a big fan of using my Intimidation rolls to save me. Oh, think 6'4", wears mostly black, lots of chains, usually scowling, semi-long dark hair, dark eyes... Sure, for some people, I sound like some wanna-be goth. Nah, I just like black, s'all. However, when I approach people who don't know me, they end up recoiling in fear like I'm about to pull a twelve-inch sinuine blade and drive it into their back. Either they have low Willpower or I'm just fragging scary when I scowl. I dunno yet...

Anyway. If Intimidation fails, run. If that fails, get into a public place right away, because, most likely, they'll give up in fear of being caught. If that fails, well, it was nice knowing you. =\

Again, I'm no expert in fighting. In sparring, I'm decent. Just decent. I, however, am nothing compared to people who actually do fight for their lives.

Tanka.... could you post a link to your school or teacher of Okinawan ninjutsu? I'd be interested in reading more about that.

--K

Yes, I'd be interested too, not just to learn but see how "authentic" this is.

He has no website nor any information. I only know him from a Renaissance Festival I work at.

Yes, I know, sounds sketchy. I do know, however, that it is not Jeet Kun Do, and the method of teaching is very close to traditional Japanese. Just before the end of my project, we were about to begin Ironfist.

It doesn't really matter too much 'what' you train, 'how' you train is more important. A lot of people practice martial arts with the same mentality as performing a sport or dancing.

By training this way you practice using the front/top part of your brain. In a real situation stress and adrenaline come into play, in most people this causes those parts of the brain to stop functioning. Hence they 'forget' what they have trained and become a rabbit in the hunters headlights.

If you learn through experience (fighting in the 'streets') or train with intent you can learn your techniques in the small part at the back of your brain. (This is whats required to handle on 'reflex' in stressfull situations).

The best way to train intent is to have a goal, do you need to learn for your job (bouncers, police, military etc) or perhaps you train to protect family, friends and loved ones. Without it its very very hard to accomplish and keep doing so.

I don't know about that... If you practice the same moves over and over, it gets set back in motor control and you react without thinking. I've only had a few years of karate at the community center waaay back, but I've found that certain things, such as drops and rolls, have really stuck with me. I got hit by a car while on my bike and was surprised to find myself on the hood in a position I learned in karate. Now I cannot in any way claim I could do a complex maneuver, and I've never had a reason to throw a punch, but it seems like, as long as you practice enough, at least some of it will stick and will come out when you need it.

Tanka.... I'd like to gently suggest that training with someone under sketchy circumstances is similar to having lunch at a roadside taco stand in Mexico. There's a very slight chance that you have been lucky enough to encounter undiscovered genius. There's an okay chance that the food will be palatable, but not great. There's a decent chance you'll get food poisoning. There's a slight chance the food could kill you. You must proceed very carefully -- and sometimes, skipping lunch is better than eating at that taco stand.

--K

Since this poll doesn't have a "usually" option, I had to vote Yes. Because I generally think that whoever say they're really good at anything are full of it, I never say I'm good at something. I can fire some guns, and sometimes I even hit what I aimed at. I was trained rather intensively with one firearm for 9 months, but I'd never dare to assume that my skill with that weapon (specialization Assault Rifles/RK62) ever was higher than 3, and it would probably be 2 right now. I've got to admit that it's pretty hard not to comment sometimes when people claim they have firearms skills in the 8-12 range simply because they shoot a lot.

I think it's probably easier to have illusions about your firearm handling skills, because it's not something that you generally train by engaging in a fight against someone else (or at least generally not in the Western world).

I've never had any Melee Combat skill, regardless of being (not-very-intensively) trained for 3-6 months in holds, wrestling and the use of a baton.

But I probably fall into the category of "depressed realists" that The White Dwarf mentioned in the 19th msg of this thread.

Hunters probably get some decent experience, and there are plenty of those in parts of the Western world. North Carolina has so many hunters there ought to be a season to keep their numbers down. Anyway, social commentary aside, hunting puts you against a live, moving target in realistic conditions (whether, uphill/downhill, cover, lighting, fatigue, etc.). Deer don't shoot back, but dodging incoming fire isn't part of Shadowrun's firearms skill anyway.

Shooting at the range couldn't get you more than a skill of 2 or so, I would think, since the conditions are so groomed. That's like punching a heavy bag and calling yourself a boxer. Shooting at a pop-up urban-simulation range would help a little, but unless the range designer is truly fiendish, its probably not too different.

I did hear about one of these simulation courses for advanced shooters where they had a registered nurse drain a pint of your blood before you entered the range, to simulate blood loss from a wound during a firefight. This seminar was run by Massad Ayoob, a famous advanced firearms trainer. I can only imagine the waiver forms participants had to sign.

--K

Getting a bit off topic, but what the heck.

I bet the US Army (/MC/N/AF) has far more complex, stressful and realistic combat simulations than we ever had, but ours weren't just about shooting pop-up targets either. Of course this is military training, so it HAS to be more than just pop-up urban simulation ranges.

Simulated artillery barrages (dozens of 100g TNT charges 50-100 meter in front of our lines), simulated return fire (MGs in front of us firing blanks, dunno how they were operated), that kind of stuff. Add all the other stress of such a situation, like never getting any justification for why we're advancing now, or falling back now, or just lying here waiting, all the running back and the resulting exhaustion... It comes quite close to what "stepping into the ring(/tatami/whatever)" does for martial arts. You know you can't really be hurt, but being told by the lieutenant behind you that "You got hit, you're out" is sometimes almost as bad.

Excercises like that would do wonders for the SR type firearms skills. And then there are MILES-excercices, which (I gather, never tried except in America's Army: Ops...) work especially well in urban terrain (MOUT), and would be great training for one's Assault Rifles skill.

And yet, even though soldiers in modern western armies should be doing loads of excercises like that over several years in addition to blasting through massive amounts of ammo on ranges, we generally give these guys Assault Rifles (Service Weapon) 3/5 in the "What Skills Would A Soldier Have" threads. Using the same logic, someone who trains intensively (several times a week) in a martial art (some truly useful-for-real-life-combat-situations kind) against opponents of varying skill levels, in all kinds of different potential real world scenarios, almost no-holds-barred, for a year or two, should have a base skill of about 4 in that art.

You know, I forgot those complex military simulations. Those rock. I've never been in the military, so it slips my mind, but I've heard about them before. I'm sure those are great for training -- probably even more so than actual battle in that you're there primarily to learn. Actual battle, I hear, includes a lot of sitting around being really tense and waiting for something to happen.

As for the skills in terms of SR ratings, I agree with what you summarized. I've never seen anyone claim RL skills equivalent of 8+ around here, but if they did, they better have some serious credentials backing that up. You wouldn't get that good in your backyard -- you'd probably be running a training facility somewhere.

I would also submit that there is no practical way to measure skill past a certain point. At least from my martial arts experience, once people get as good as what I'd call an 8, it gets kind of hard to compare one to the other. The differences are too subtle and specialized.

--K

I have a 12 in Slacking, at least.

~J

Imagine the training possibilities with SR virtua-sim tech.

Insofar as I know, there isn't a reliable standard to grade training that encompasses technical capability and environmental scenarios including the absolute realization that "hey, I could die!"

US Military and police agencies have been experimenting with video shooting ranges - basically glorified video games with variable scenarios. Which is a step above time of the range in some respects, but still doesn't convey a "real" atmosphere.

The best they can do is simulate the effects and hope the student can apply the training under fire (so to speak).

-Siege

Yep, that's true. And even if you fell back on the original proving ground (actually going into battle and killing people) it doesn't prove anything. One could always argue that a particular enemy was weak, unprepared, unlucky, ate bad rice, etc. There is absolutely no way short of divination to answer the question, "Will I win my next fight?" And obviously, the answer to "Will I win every fight?" is "No."

Austere, it amuses me that they actually train troops for being bored and tense. I guess they cover all the angles for battlefield conditions.

--K

Ok, I've never taken any classes. Read some books. Got picked on alot in middle school. I think I do know something about fighting. See, I'm white. That doesn't mean much, off the bat. But most of my "friends" are black. And when we go out on the town, or walk to the store, or go to buy some pot, I'm the only whiteboy, in most cases.

This has lead to some interesting situations. Such as fighting 3 or 4 people at once. Something I have done. And I have done it pretty good. If I had a shadowrun skill, it might be Unarmed combat(fists) 1/3, and edged weapons 2. But I would definately have the toughness edge. For some reason, I won a fight with 1 punch. I let them beat me in the head. And I took it like a man.

I know how to hit, and make it hurt. I have a fast punch, that's alot harder than you would think a 150 pound skinny white boy can muster. I also have a redneck's stubborness, and I don't give up. But I trained myself.

I used to pound my knuckles raw, untill blood was o nthe punchign bag and the floor. I have cut myself. I punch hard objects. And I do calisthinics. What you would call jail weights. Push-ups. Pull-ups, lifting a sledge hammer and holding it out in front of me.

What else? Oh, yeah, I worked at a bar as a dishwasher. Skinny white boy who hangs out with niggers in redneckland. Guess how that went. 5(us) on 17(them). We handled the situation.
Admirably.

Yes, some of us have to be the redshirts. But I'm not. I'm just a young man with a warrior's heart.

Oh yeah, and most of a fight is mental. The rest is APPLIED strength and skill. I have a good amount.

Brawling doesn't show how much skill you have, although it is rather ruthless.

Skill levels are based on training, not what you can/cannot do. So, with no training, you have a skill of 0 in it. However, you do default rather well.

Hi,
I'm big, I've been in the Army, I've studied martial arts, I have worked the door and bounced in bars and I've been in about 100 fights. In some of them I've gotten my ass beaten. In some, I humiliated my opponent. Mostly, other than a couple bumps or bruises, nothing was decided. That's not to say everyone didn't have fun.
I've learned many important lessons.
Never go outside to fight alone. If you are alone, swallow your pride, and get the f*ck out. I've got a big scar on the back of my head to remind me.
Never get in a fight when you are too drunk to stand. Got a scar on my ankle for that one.
Never hang around if the cops show up. They'll always drag you in, no matter who "started it". Got fingerprinted for that one.
Never try to face down the bouncer. He's got friends close by and the law on his side. He will not back down in front of his friends. And you are never so good of a customer that they will not kick your ass.
Everyone who talks about how he beat up a couple of cops, or punched out the General, or whatever other authority figure you want to mention, was actually treated like a bitch by them, and they've never forgotten it.
Being a tough guy is not about being strong or fast or well trained. It's the ability to start swinging, and keep swinging, no matter what happens to you , until you drop or the other guy does. All the training in the world does not make up for this.

To answer the poll, I'm sure there's lots of guys here who've had training. Fascination with violence is what led many of us into RPGs in the first place. Are they the worlds greatest bad=asses? No. They'd be at work getting paid to body-guard Stalone, and living a life at least as interesting as the guys we pretend to be in SR. Hanging out in bars at 11am with girls blowing fire from behind the bar and getting their charges out of tight situations in cool bars where girls dance in cages.

Apparently Choy Li Fut is good for fighting against multiple opponents. Wouldn't know for sure, however, but it looks like a cool long form martial art.

Being well trained=being able to start swinging and keep swinging until someone goes down. Being strong=less swings required. Being fast=more swings per one by your opponent.
So it does matter.

~J

Just to be a typical gamer type stickler for facts, let it be noted that Ninjutsu is NOT a fighting style and anyone who tells you they practice Ninjutsu is rather full of caca, unless of course they are training to be an assassin.

Ninjutsu is the name of the whole shabang, including disguise and stealth and poisons and blah blah blah... the combat style used in Ninjutsu is called Taijutsu.

Sunday

Of which was offered in the time period. The time period, of course, was not long, sad to say. =\