 Suppressive Fire question |
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 Apr 21 2006, 07:42 PM
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#26
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Target  Group: Members Posts: 23 Joined: 16-February 06 Member No.: 8,272  |
It wasn't mentioned as the first combat phase, but in that case you are right.
James: dcpirahna and I are disagreeing on the timing of when targets need to drop prone to avoid being in danger of suppressive fire. Are you saying that you agree with his interpretation of the rules, that it only needs to be done on the target's turn? Because I'm not buying it. I feel it should be done at the time suppressive fire takes effect, everyone who can clear the area should do it now or roll to see if they are hit. I feel that only requiring targets to have to drop prone on their turn makes no sense. What if someone is thrown into the area of suppression? Does that person only need to stay down (assuming he didn't land on his feet) to not take potential hit from any bullet? This person would need to make a roll to avoid being hit by suppressive fire if he was willingly diving across himself. Should these two scenarios really be treated differently? High initiative is powerful, period. It is just as powerful using any other kind of shooting or spell casting. If you shoot someone lower on the initiative before they can take cover, they have to do full defense to have a decent chance of not getting hit, which takes up their next complex action. And targets of suppressive fire certainly can make use of full defense. |
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Apr 21 2006, 07:45 PM
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#27
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Target Group: Members Posts: 49 Joined: 17-April 06 From: Germantown, MD Member No.: 8,476 |
Remember that suppression is not targeted fire that fills all available space in the air. It's someone using 20 bullets to fill a 10 meter x 2 meter area. That 1 bullet per square meter on average. This isn't exactly a wall of lead. The purpose is to stop movement and pin your opponents down. The rules say just dropping prone is fine to avoid a damage roll. (p144) And generally "movement" means moving your entire body around, not just moving your hands a bit to aim and pull the trigger. |
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Apr 21 2006, 07:51 PM
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#28
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Target Group: Members Posts: 23 Joined: 16-February 06 Member No.: 8,272 |
I agree with targets being able to fire back. In fact, dropping prone is incredibly powerful for gun fights. If you're prone and at least 20 meters away from your opponents, then you take no penalty in shooting at them while they take -4 to their dice firing at you because you're considered to have good cover. (p. 141)
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Apr 21 2006, 07:52 PM
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#29
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
I'm not agreeing with anyone until I have a book handy so I can look at the rules myself. I was just saying that if his interpretation is correct, it might have been done to avoid situations where high initiative characters get to attack 20 people, none of them getting a dodge roll.
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Apr 21 2006, 08:01 PM
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#30
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,150 Joined: 19-December 05 From: Rhein-Ruhr Megaplex Member No.: 8,081 |
When laying down suppressive fire in a narrow corridor, i'd agree that beeing prone probably isn't enough to avoid damage.
I will decide that one when it occurs ;). |
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Apr 21 2006, 08:06 PM
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#31
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Target Group: Members Posts: 49 Joined: 17-April 06 From: Germantown, MD Member No.: 8,476 |
Typed it in for you :) Hopefully quoting this much isn't illegal or anything. This is the entire area on p144 about suppressive fire.
Suppressive Fire Somtimes a character may just use full autofire to make his opponents keep their heads down. This type of shooting - where the character saturates an area with bullets without specifically targeting anyone - is called suppressive fire. A character using a full burst to suppress can target a triangular area projecting from the shooting character outward up to a distance of his choosing with a width of 10 meters at its end and a height of 2 meters. Suppressive fire takes a Complex Action and uses 20 bullets. The area remains "suppressed" until the shooting character's next Action Phase. Suppressive fire is treated as a wide burst, but for simplicity we assume that the wide burst and recoil modifiers cancel out. The character laying down the suppressive fire simply make a Success Test using Agility + appropriate firearm skill. Note any hits. Any character that is currently in (but not behind cover or prone) or that moves in to or out of the suppressed area before the shooter's next Action Phase risks catching some flying lead. That character must make a Reaction + Edge ( + Dodge if on full defense ) with a threshold equal to the hits scored by the suppressing attacker. If the test fails, the character is hit, suffering damage at the weapon's base Damage Value. Characters in the suppressed area who do not move other than taking cover or dropping prone are not at risk. |
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Apr 21 2006, 08:24 PM
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#32
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
It looks to me like if they're in it they get hit. If, during their turn, they don't leave it, get cover, or drop prone, they take it again. But it's really vague, and definitely in need of a FAQ.
How did it work in 3rd? |
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Apr 21 2006, 08:51 PM
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#33
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Target Group: Members Posts: 49 Joined: 17-April 06 From: Germantown, MD Member No.: 8,476 |
If that was true, if you had 10 guys standing in a hallway and you get to go first, you basically get a free single shot at every single one of them. Nothing they can do about it. (Since you can't take a free action before your turn.) Other than roll against an average threshhold of 2-3 and pray. That's some pretty impressive sharp shooting there Texas. |
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Apr 21 2006, 08:59 PM
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#34
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
[SR3] The targets take damage on their pass, so the first person through the area or within it to have an action, would be hit first, but people in front of him or her would probably act as cover for determining the damage of "hits". I would say that any bullets that didn't do damage can still damage other targets, but subtract those that have done damage each pass from the Dodge TN. [/SR3] |
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Apr 21 2006, 09:02 PM
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#35
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
But isn't that what would happen if you opened fire with a machine gun in real life? I mean, there is a reason we have these weapons. It's not exactly a realistic secnario you're laying out, but when it happens (people opening fire on targets in the open), pretty much everybody gets hit... |
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Apr 21 2006, 09:12 PM
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#36
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Target Group: Members Posts: 49 Joined: 17-April 06 From: Germantown, MD Member No.: 8,476 |
I disagree. Unless they're purposely showing you as much surface area as possible it's unlikely you'll hit many at all but I don't want to get involved in a "IRL" argument. The point is that this basically would be overpowered. You would get 10 free chances to do at least 5P damage to 10 targets. And anyone worth a salt with a FA weapon is going to have at around 9 dice so average of 3 hits. So reaction + edge with a threshhold of 3. And during their turn if they do anything but drop/cover, you get ANOTHER free chance. Honestly, that can be more effective than a grenade since you don't have to deal with scatter. And this is with a maneuver that is designed as a way to "make his opponents keep their heads down." |
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Apr 21 2006, 09:21 PM
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#37
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
That line would indicate, to me, that one need not worry about it until their turn. |
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Apr 21 2006, 09:24 PM
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#38
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Target Group: Members Posts: 49 Joined: 17-April 06 From: Germantown, MD Member No.: 8,476 |
Yes, sorry. My belief on how it works is earlier in the thread which is that people only need to worry about it on their turn. Others in the thread believe that you have to worry about it immediatly AND on your turn which is what happens in the example I gave. The example is one of the reasons why I believe it only matters on the targets turn. |
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Apr 21 2006, 09:37 PM
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#39
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Target Group: Members Posts: 23 Joined: 16-February 06 Member No.: 8,272 |
I think that's how dcpirahna interprets it too. Unfortunately, that seems to be ignoring this below line, especially the bolded part of "currently in".
That's why I think if they are in now, and can't get down with a free action, then they are hit. On their move, if they just drop down, no worry, otherwise, roll again. |
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Apr 21 2006, 09:52 PM
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#40
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Target Group: Members Posts: 23 Joined: 16-February 06 Member No.: 8,272 |
Here's an example of only worrying about suppressive fire on your turn becomes comedy.
Runner team of 4 tries cross a 5 meter wide hallway covered by continual suppressive fire from 10 gun turrets, they cover from ceiling to floor. Runners go in this initiative order, 1, 2, 3, 4. Asssume all runners are very strong. Runner 1 and 3 tie a rope between them. Runner 2 and 4 tie a rope between them. On the next phase, turrets still firing suppressively. Runner 1 tosses 3 over the hallway, through 10 gun turrets' suppressive fire. (But that's okay, runner 3 needs not worry about taking damage because it's not his turn.) On 2's initiative, he tosses 4 over. On 3's initiative, he's on the other side of the hallway, but he's not exposed to suppressive fire on his turn so he takes no roll to avoid being hit. Now he pulls runner 1 over. On runner 4's turn, he pulls 1 over. Voila, all 4 runners passing by the hallway and not a single one ever exposed to suppressive fire ON HIS TURN. |
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Apr 21 2006, 09:55 PM
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#41
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,150 Joined: 19-December 05 From: Rhein-Ruhr Megaplex Member No.: 8,081 |
That is a very munchkin example. Please don't do these.
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Apr 21 2006, 10:02 PM
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#42
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
The thing is, by the rules you can only move someone on their turn...
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Apr 21 2006, 10:03 PM
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#43
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Target Group: Members Posts: 49 Joined: 17-April 06 From: Germantown, MD Member No.: 8,476 |
Nope, that's just fine. Because when on the turn of any of the people with the rope, they have moved in to and out of a supressed area in a way other than taking cover or dropping prone. Thus, they must roll on their turn to check for damage. ps. I did find lots of hilarity in the example however :) |
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Apr 22 2006, 05:13 AM
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#44
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,590 Joined: 11-September 04 Member No.: 6,650 |
"My strength 15 troll picks up the small elf and throws it out the window" "Sorry you can only move someone on their turn, the elf successfully stands it's ground with strength 1 against your strength 15." |
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Apr 22 2006, 05:38 AM
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#45
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
Sorry, I forget that you all need smilies on everything. |
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Apr 22 2006, 07:07 PM
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#46
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Target Group: Members Posts: 23 Joined: 16-February 06 Member No.: 8,272 |
I defeinitely agree that they should roll or take damage, but they shouldn't do it on their turn. They should be doing it when they move in and out of the area! The point is, when something like spraying bullets happens, it's an action that should produce immediate result. (We're not talking about a delayed blast grenade here.) The area becomes saturated with bullets immediately and contiuously till the shooter's next action. It just makes no sense for the effect not to be felt by targets in the area till their movement turn. Anyone who gets in the area during the turn voluntarily or not should feel the effect immediately. It's akin to someone rolling up the blinds of a window that causes sunlight to shine in. Any vampires that happen to be in the area of the sunlight as a result will need to take damage immediately, not until their turn. |
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Apr 23 2006, 05:07 AM
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#47
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
Reading the SR4 Full Defense rules makes me more sure that the person only takes damage if they do something other than Drop Prone or Take Cover on their turn - but they have to choose when the Suppressive Fire begins: before they even have an action. Try to remember that all these actions are taking place more or less at the same time. See example on page 151.
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Apr 24 2006, 09:20 PM
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#48
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 834 Joined: 30-June 03 Member No.: 4,832 |
strangely, this is a better deal for those with poor IP, with the following line: "The area remains "suppressed" until the shooting character's next Action Phase." that to me means this.
Joe Slow and Jack Fast are in a shoot out, Joe Slow lays down the suppressive fire, Jack Fast has an entire 3 seconds of bullet dodging to do while he runs out his 4 IPs. |
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Apr 24 2006, 09:35 PM
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#49
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Target Group: Members Posts: 49 Joined: 17-April 06 From: Germantown, MD Member No.: 8,476 |
There's two ways to handle that.
One: Assume there are basically always 4 initiative passes in a combat turn. Just because you don't get an action in one doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Example: Phase 1: Fast Jack does something (doesn't matter). Slow Joe does suppression fire. Phase 2: Fast Jack must drop/cover or risk damage. Slow Joe. Does not get turn since he has no more phases, however suppression stops. Phase 3: Fast Jack is in the clear to do whatever he wants at no risk. Or two (house rule that I prefer): Assume that suppression works until the next movement of that character even if it's in the next Combat turn. Ie, a character with Slow Joe with 1 IP keeps Fast Jack suppressed for the entire 3 seconds (the rest of the IP's in the turn). Character with extra initiative passes can choose to "continue suppression" as their only action for that pass to continue the suppression with no extra ammo used. That way a 4 IP person doesn't have to spend 80 bullets to suppress for the same amount of time as a 1 IP person. Doing it this way makes more sense to me since sure, Slow Joe is slower than Fast Jack, but he's not just spraying an area for .75 seconds of the turn, and then not shooting bullets the other 2.25 seconds. (Though that is certainly possible.) |
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Apr 24 2006, 09:36 PM
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#50
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,556 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 98 |
The "better deal" for Joe is that he only spends 1/4 of the ammo Jack does accomplishing the same thing, if they were both to suppress something.
Of course, Jack could always wait until the 2nd IP, when all the un-amped people have used up all their actions, and suppress them all, forcing a "did I get hit" check on the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th IP for anyone who couldn't duck. What makes it pretty obvious to me that suppression checks are made on the shooter's turn (and not on the shootee's turn) is the whole IP system, actually. If a sammie suppresses a bunch of one-pass people on IP 2, then goes on to do something else on IP 3, he can't actually have hit anyone if we go by the "effect occurs on the shootee's turn" rule, since despite having slung 20 rounds of ammo downrange, our sammie didn't have the suppression going on during the first pass, which is when all of his targets actually get their action. Yeah, it's a little nuts for someone to be able to suppress with 4 passes like a fiend. It's just ridiculous to say that slow people can ignore suppressive fire until the next turn as long as it happens after their last pass. |
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