Edit: I read it some more and I think I get. I'd erase this post but it won't let me. Thanks

Well, too bad you erased your post before I got to read it, because I have a suppressive fire question. This is just to show people that I did try to search

Say I want to use suppressive firing on two enemies. One has higher (A) initiative than me and the other lower (B). Say A has already spent his action for this phase and does have a free action left. Now it's my turn and I fire at both of them. My understanding is that A can spend his left over free action to drop prone, thus does not need to roll to avoid the suppressive fire. B on the other hand, cannot spend a free action to do so since it's not yet his turn so he has to roll Reaction + Edge to see if he's hit. Now on B's turn, if he doesn't drop prone or take cover but decides to just move away from the suppressive fire, then he's at risk again from the flying lead. In other words, he could potentially need to roll twice. Is this correct?

Free Actions can be taken at any time in the Initiative sequence. Even when its not your turn. You only get one of them for every IP you have, however.

Person A can not actually use his action to fall prone and avoid your fire. If he wants to use his remaining free action, he has to announce that the moment you want to act. But he does not get to know what you are going to do, so he can not react to your action. If he is a mage with mindprobe on you, yes, he could fall prone to avoid your fire, since he knew you would attack this way.
If he is not a mage, he has to wait with falling prone until you are finished with your action and roll his defense roll, since he maybe gets hit.
The exactly same goes for B. He could fall prone if he liked(as mdynna said, free action available even before his initiative phase), but only before you announce your suppressive fire attempt.
Both roll their defense rolls and maybe get damage.
If they "decide to just move away from the suppressive fire" on their next action, they do not have to roll a defense roll this time. That's described on page 144.

(pg. 135 - second paragraph)
"A character may take a Free Action during his own Action
Phase or at some later point in the Initiative Pass. A character
may not take a Free Action prior to his first Action Phase in the
Initiative Pass."

That's why I thought A would be able to drop prone, but not B.

UndeadPoet, I don't think that's correct. I declare my action to do suppressive fire on A and B, and A may declare his free action at this point.

(p. 132 second paragraph under 3.A. Declare Actions)
"Likewise, any character who has already acted in the Combat Turn
prior to this Action Phase and still has his Free Action left may declare it at this point if he chooses."

Okay, then there is a special ruling about using free actions... All other actions, when delayed, have to be declared before the person at whose initiative you wish to act declares his.
In this case, A and B both can fall prone and do not get any damage. Looks like person C who use suppressive fire has fucked up, because he has just emptied his weapon by 20 shells and did not hit anything. The opponents fall prone and shoot him dead right away.

I guess I should qualify my scenario. Let's say that I'm firing suppressively in the first action phase of the first combat turn. That means that person B cannot use his free action yet. So in this case, he is at risk of getting hit.

Aaron, you're right. That is the goal of suppressive fire, but I wouldn't be disappointed if I could nail a couple of people who are slow acting

@Aaron: You missed the fact that the opponents still have actions besides their free one they need to let themselves fall to the ground. Still a complex one or two simple actions remaining.
Meaning, they are still able to harm the team.

also, dont forget, that iirc, suppressive fire lasts until YOUR next turn, so if they stand up to fire back, they again need to make a defensive roll.

@Hunga: Doh! Okay, got it, thanks.

@Aku: Nothing hinders them from just keeping laying there and firing.

I think the most important point of Suppressive Fire is being missed: it lasts until your next action (or the Combat Turn ends). Basically, it forces everyone in the field of fire to lose one whole IP.

Example:
Initiative order is Corp A, PC Rigger, Corp B, Corp C.
Corp A guy goes and does something.
PC Rigger now begins laying suppressive fire. Assuming Corp A still has a Free action left he can drop prone at that point. Corp B & C and in danger from the suppressive fire for now.
Corp B & C drop prone on their turn, SF is still in effect.

Next IP:
Corp A's turn suppressive fire is still in effect, so he can act but if he gets up he is in danger.
Now its PC Rigger's turn, and the SF ends. But it can be restarted if he/she wants.

Now, granted, Corp A could have delayed his action, stayed prone, and waited to see if PC Rigger would let up on the Suppressive Fire. However, that gives PC Rigger's allies time to do what they need to do (usually escape). The key in using SF is to make sure it happens before or simultaneously to any "covered" actions you want to take. Basically, if you are uber-fast Street Sam but you know Corp Goons go before your Rigger then delay until the Rigger's turn so that he/she can lay down the SF and cover your escape.

EDIT: I see now I'm re-stating what was said above. I'm just more verbose.

As I read it from the rules:

Combat Phase 1
A . shoots random person
Shooter. Use suppression fire in the area occupied by A and B
B. Either Drop prone/cover (no roll), any other movement(or standing
still) (Reaction+edge or take damage)

Combat Phase 2
Suppression fire is still in effect because Shooter has not acted again.
A. Either Drop prone/cover (no roll), any other movement(or standing
still) (Reaction+edge or take damage)
Shooter. Suppresion fire ends, unless you do it again.
...

In this way:
1) _Everyone_ in the suppressed area must drop/cover or risk being hit once.
2) You cannot hit anyone more than once.

Timing it is important, but just because you have the drop on someone doesn't give anyone a particularly huge advangage. Noone takes damage without a chance to act at all because the risk depends on their actions. From the book: "Characters in the suppressed area who do not move other than taking cover or dropping prone are not at risk. (p.144 last sentence)"

Pretending to be a statue doesn't count as "not at risk" however

So, people who are in the field of fire (wow, old book flashback) who have not acted yet are not at risk of injury until their action. That's fair.

From my interpretation you are correct UndeadPoet. Suppression only limits the targets movement, not actions. They can still shoot/cast back from a prone position.

If it limited actions as well it would be incredibly overpowered.

but by limiting movement you can control where the enemy comes from, and potentialy lead them into a crossfire. or pin them down and then drop explosives down on them.

hmm, this thread showed me that my take on free actions where a bit flawed. i had allways understood it as free actions being in unlimited quantity as long as you only took one pr initiative "count". maybe this changed given the slightly alterd way of doing initiative...

It may have been done as a play balance issue? I can see where high initiative plus suppressive fire would be incredibly nasty if the other guy couldn't avoid it because he hasn't gone first.

Corp B and C could not have talked about the weather. They do not get free actions until their turn, which is after the Rigger already layed down suppression fire. At which point they can either drop prone and not take damage, or talk about the weather and take damage.

If you mean A talking about the weather on his free action, then yes. He takes no damage until his next move before the rigger in the next IP, at which point he has the option of either dropping prone/cover, or taking damage.

The rules are an abstraction of combat. It's all happening very fast. He's not just sitting there in the bullets picking his nose.

After rethinking, i agree with dcpirahna.

The only real issue is things that cause people's initive positions to change making them fall out of the suppression timing (never having to roll), or the shooter faller further down causing someone to be in the suppression for 2 IPs, but this can be handled on a case by case basis by the GM in my opinion.

It wasn't mentioned as the first combat phase, but in that case you are right.

James: dcpirahna and I are disagreeing on the timing of when targets need to drop prone to avoid being in danger of suppressive fire. Are you saying that you agree with his interpretation of the rules, that it only needs to be done on the target's turn? Because I'm not buying it. I feel it should be done at the time suppressive fire takes effect, everyone who can clear the area should do it now or roll to see if they are hit.

I feel that only requiring targets to have to drop prone on their turn makes no sense. What if someone is thrown into the area of suppression? Does that person only need to stay down (assuming he didn't land on his feet) to not take potential hit from any bullet? This person would need to make a roll to avoid being hit by suppressive fire if he was willingly diving across himself. Should these two scenarios really be treated differently?

High initiative is powerful, period. It is just as powerful using any other kind of shooting or spell casting. If you shoot someone lower on the initiative before they can take cover, they have to do full defense to have a decent chance of not getting hit, which takes up their next complex action. And targets of suppressive fire certainly can make use of full defense.

I agree with targets being able to fire back. In fact, dropping prone is incredibly powerful for gun fights. If you're prone and at least 20 meters away from your opponents, then you take no penalty in shooting at them while they take -4 to their dice firing at you because you're considered to have good cover. (p. 141)

I'm not agreeing with anyone until I have a book handy so I can look at the rules myself. I was just saying that if his interpretation is correct, it might have been done to avoid situations where high initiative characters get to attack 20 people, none of them getting a dodge roll.

When laying down suppressive fire in a narrow corridor, i'd agree that beeing prone probably isn't enough to avoid damage.

I will decide that one when it occurs .

Typed it in for you Hopefully quoting this much isn't illegal or anything. This is the entire area on p144 about suppressive fire.


Suppressive Fire

Somtimes a character may just use full autofire to make his opponents keep their heads down. This type of shooting - where the character saturates an area with bullets without specifically targeting anyone - is called suppressive fire. A character using a full burst to suppress can target a triangular area projecting from the shooting character outward up to a distance of his choosing with a width of 10 meters at its end and a height of 2 meters. Suppressive fire takes a Complex Action and uses 20 bullets. The area remains "suppressed" until the shooting character's next Action Phase.

Suppressive fire is treated as a wide burst, but for simplicity we assume that the wide burst and recoil modifiers cancel out. The character laying down the suppressive fire simply make a Success Test using Agility + appropriate firearm skill. Note any hits.

Any character that is currently in (but not behind cover or prone) or that moves in to or out of the suppressed area before the shooter's next Action Phase risks catching some flying lead. That character must make a Reaction + Edge ( + Dodge if on full defense ) with a threshold equal to the hits scored by the suppressing attacker. If the test fails, the character is hit, suffering damage at the weapon's base Damage Value. Characters in the suppressed area who do not move other than taking cover or dropping prone are not at risk.

It looks to me like if they're in it they get hit. If, during their turn, they don't leave it, get cover, or drop prone, they take it again. But it's really vague, and definitely in need of a FAQ.

How did it work in 3rd?

Here's an example of only worrying about suppressive fire on your turn becomes comedy.

Runner team of 4 tries cross a 5 meter wide hallway covered by continual suppressive fire from 10 gun turrets, they cover from ceiling to floor. Runners go in this initiative order, 1, 2, 3, 4. Asssume all runners are very strong. Runner 1 and 3 tie a rope between them. Runner 2 and 4 tie a rope between them. On the next phase, turrets still firing suppressively. Runner 1 tosses 3 over the hallway, through 10 gun turrets' suppressive fire. (But that's okay, runner 3 needs not worry about taking damage because it's not his turn.) On 2's initiative, he tosses 4 over. On 3's initiative, he's on the other side of the hallway, but he's not exposed to suppressive fire on his turn so he takes no roll to avoid being hit. Now he pulls runner 1 over. On runner 4's turn, he pulls 1 over. Voila, all 4 runners passing by the hallway and not a single one ever exposed to suppressive fire ON HIS TURN.

That is a very munchkin example. Please don't do these.

The thing is, by the rules you can only move someone on their turn...

Reading the SR4 Full Defense rules makes me more sure that the person only takes damage if they do something other than Drop Prone or Take Cover on their turn - but they have to choose when the Suppressive Fire begins: before they even have an action. Try to remember that all these actions are taking place more or less at the same time. See example on page 151.

strangely, this is a better deal for those with poor IP, with the following line: "The area remains "suppressed" until the shooting character's next Action Phase." that to me means this.

Joe Slow and Jack Fast are in a shoot out, Joe Slow lays down the suppressive fire, Jack Fast has an entire 3 seconds of bullet dodging to do while he runs out his 4 IPs.

There's two ways to handle that.

One:
Assume there are basically always 4 initiative passes in a combat turn. Just because you don't get an action in one doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Example:

Phase 1:
Fast Jack does something (doesn't matter).
Slow Joe does suppression fire.
Phase 2:
Fast Jack must drop/cover or risk damage.
Slow Joe. Does not get turn since he has no more phases, however suppression stops.
Phase 3:
Fast Jack is in the clear to do whatever he wants at no risk.


Or two (house rule that I prefer):

Assume that suppression works until the next movement of that character even if it's in the next Combat turn. Ie, a character with Slow Joe with 1 IP keeps Fast Jack suppressed for the entire 3 seconds (the rest of the IP's in the turn). Character with extra initiative passes can choose to "continue suppression" as their only action for that pass to continue the suppression with no extra ammo used. That way a 4 IP person doesn't have to spend 80 bullets to suppress for the same amount of time as a 1 IP person.

Doing it this way makes more sense to me since sure, Slow Joe is slower than Fast Jack, but he's not just spraying an area for .75 seconds of the turn, and then not shooting bullets the other 2.25 seconds. (Though that is certainly possible.)

The "better deal" for Joe is that he only spends 1/4 of the ammo Jack does accomplishing the same thing, if they were both to suppress something.

Of course, Jack could always wait until the 2nd IP, when all the un-amped people have used up all their actions, and suppress them all, forcing a "did I get hit" check on the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th IP for anyone who couldn't duck.

What makes it pretty obvious to me that suppression checks are made on the shooter's turn (and not on the shootee's turn) is the whole IP system, actually. If a sammie suppresses a bunch of one-pass people on IP 2, then goes on to do something else on IP 3, he can't actually have hit anyone if we go by the "effect occurs on the shootee's turn" rule, since despite having slung 20 rounds of ammo downrange, our sammie didn't have the suppression going on during the first pass, which is when all of his targets actually get their action.

Yeah, it's a little nuts for someone to be able to suppress with 4 passes like a fiend. It's just ridiculous to say that slow people can ignore suppressive fire until the next turn as long as it happens after their last pass.