 Dog Days, Captain Obvious points to new SR Fiction |
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 Apr 25 2006, 01:26 AM
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#101
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Dragon  Group: Members Posts: 4,589 Joined: 28-November 05 Member No.: 8,019  |
Dude, SL, I'm sorry if the following sounds provincial or SoCal teen, but really, this is the heart of the issue.
Stop being a dick. |
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Apr 25 2006, 01:49 AM
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#102
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 684 Joined: 8-April 06 From: My dorm room Member No.: 8,438 |
Well, that's a silly reason not to submit a story. Obviously, I can't speak for everyone, but I don't think that there's anything inherently wrong with an "unoriginal" story. It's so much better if you can create a derivative and formulaic masterpiece than if you make an original and novel piece of crap. What's more, you came up with your idea independently of AH, so it's not even like you're copying from him! Go ahead and submit your story, as well as any other stories you're saving up because "somebody else did it first." EDIT: And finally, there wouldn't be anything inherently wrong with your story being associated with AH's, either. Don't tell me you would be in any way upset or offended if someone said: "'James' Story' transcends 'Dog Days' by leaps and bounds." |
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Apr 25 2006, 01:52 AM
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#103
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,589 Joined: 28-November 05 Member No.: 8,019 |
How would it be associated? Do you have some fragging karmic bond to him forged out of pure seething hate?
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Apr 25 2006, 02:12 AM
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#104
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Horror Group: Members Posts: 5,322 Joined: 15-June 05 From: BumFuck, New Jersey Member No.: 7,445 |
No, I think it was forged by an angry mage who had it Quickened.
In any event, AH? Your "factual" stuff is teh rox and win, so I hope you understand when I say your fiction needs work. And by work, I mean that if it were on Newgrounds, I would have to in all good consience vote for it to be Blammed. The set-up was long, and would not have been uncalled for, had the action not consisted of two pages of jumpy, jerky action. A little more description with the KE on the faccility, some close-calls would have been nice. Mr. J deserved to die, more than true, but neither was a melee weapon the proper choice, nor could he have reliably one-hit killed the J who was curled up in the fetal position. I'll grant, sometimes awesome rolls happen where you blow the rule of 6 out of the water, but still... And killing Chester in the end was entirely wrong. "I can't control this thing?" That "thing" just waxed three KE to protect you. Sure he was going a little psycho on the corpses, but that behavior could be fixed - easy to fix now that he had behavioral regulators installed. Nobody seriously goes from "This is my dog now, I'm going to take care of him" to "rebar through teh head" in the space of one asphyxiation-until-unconciousness. Really, an attack dog capable of geeking K-E animal control units? Invaluable asset to a Shadowrunner. You literally can't put a price on that kind of loyalty. Not without buying a complete drone, in which case you're sacrificing inteligence. That's the kind of dog that could rampage it's way through the wilderness from Seattle to NYC to find you. And he ends him with a rebar through the head? And even if he's that much of a cold-hearted bastard with just enough mercy to do the deed cold, he then lacks the brainpower to pawn the animal's cyber for his next several month's Lifestyle? Not only is he a cold bastard with just enough mercy in him to be even more of a cold bastard, he's a STUPID cold bastard. |
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Apr 29 2006, 11:01 AM
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#105
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Free Spirit Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,948 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Bloomington, IN UCAS Member No.: 1,920 |
When I read the character was named Sticks, I actually thought Shapcano had submitted something.
Also, its not really one DS buddy choosing to put it up on the SR site, it's more like one freelancer doing it for another freelancer. Shame on the published freelancers competing for an entry level spot. This is the perfect place to give some new contributors some exposure. This is comparable to a minor league baseball player playing in a coed softball league. ...and from the reviews, having an off day. |
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Apr 29 2006, 02:43 PM
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#106
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Why oh why didn't I take the blue pill. Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,545 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Gloomy Boise Idaho Member No.: 2,006 |
Tisoz, anyone is more than welcome to submit. But they do say they give preference to published authors. From my correspondence in the past, and from some of the material put up there, I have assumed they have a lack of quality submissions. They do have new submission guide lines that differ vastly from their original guidelines.
I also think it is erroneous to assume that his story was not put through the submission process. |
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Apr 29 2006, 03:10 PM
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#107
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 296 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Usually under a cat Member No.: 864 |
Okay, I've been quiet for quite awhile, but I'm going to step in and say a couple of things here. I hope that folks will take them in the spirit in which they were intended. First, a few comments for tisoz: This is most emphatically not a case of "one freelancer doing it for another freelancer." First of all, I inherited a stack of stories when I took over this job, and "Dog Days" was already in the editing process, which means that at least one other person (whose opinion about fiction I respect) thought it was good enough to spend time on. Yes, okay, the story had a few problems--a couple of which I didn't catch, several of which may not be problems at all (but rather matters of opinion) and a couple of which I don't really think are problems. Nonetheless, I don't believe it's in any way deserving of the crap people have been heaping on it in this forum. If you (the general 'you') don't like it, fine. That's perfectly cool. Nobody likes everything, nor is expected to. Second, tisoz, I do take it as at least a bit of an insult that you're apparently accusing me of ignoring perfectly good submissions from non-freelancers in favor of those from freelancers. I've got quite a few stories in the pipeline right now. Some of them are very good. Some of them are average. Some are not so good. I don't look at the name on the story when I read it--I look at the story itself. If it's good, I don't care if it was written by Mike Stackpole or Joe Blow from the fourth grade--it's going to get considered. If it's not, it's not. That's the way it is. As it happens, at least so far, the freelancers' submissions have for the most part been pretty good (and I'll tell you this--they generally show a better understanding the concept of mechanics, grammar, and spelling than the many of the non-freelancer submission pool, which does matter). Now, to SL James: Dude, I haven't said anything to you because of that old adage about never getting into a mudfight with a pig (you both get dirty and the pig enjoys it), but even I have limits. Nearly every post I've seen from you has been crapping on somebody. You crap on FanPro. You crap on the freelancers. You crap on the editors. You crap on the books. It kinda makes me wonder why you still play this game at all, if you hate it so much, but hey, whatever floats your boat. But when you come in here and say, essentially, "Nyah, nyah, this story is the biggest piece of crap I've ever read...I could do better, of course, but I'm not going to bother because I'm too good for anything that would publish this crappy story," I call it one thing: a cop out. I'm getting pretty sick of your variations on "I'd submit something, but..." with the excuse du jour about why you aren't actually going to submit something. So I'm going to put a challenge to you. I don't know you from the guy down the street. I have no idea what your real name is (other than assuming it's James, but there are a lot of Jameses). I've never met you. This means that I couldn't discriminate against your story if I wanted to (which I don't). So-- Shit or get off the pot. Submit a damned story. Dazzle me with your literary prowess. Prove to me that you're not just whining about other people's work because you're not capable of producing anything publishable on your own. I promise you--if it's good, I'll publish it. But if you won't do this, and want to insist on merrily flinging crap at every available target, go for it. I can't stop you. Just please stop giving us the "You all suck and I could do better but I'm not gonna!" garbage. It's getting really tiresome. Go ahead and rip me back if you must (though I wish you wouldn't, since flamewars aren't the most popular things around here with the admins). Do it in email if you want. I can take it. Or, even better--put your money where your mouth is and submit a story. |
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 Apr 29 2006, 03:36 PM
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#108
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jacked in Group: Admin Posts: 9,414 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 463 |
Well, I found the short story to be quite a fun read. Had its flaws for sure (especially the ending; the staff is kinda weird, too), but hey, that doesn't make the whole story suck or anything.
One thing, I was wondering about, not sure if it has been addressed yet, didn't read every page here: The J pays Sticks via his commlink. Doesn't that mean, that the transaction goes through official channels, being recorded and everything (with Stick's Fake SIN)? Not sure if that is such a good idea for a shadowrunner to receive money... or a Johnson who is hiring one and does not want his company to know. :) Bye Thanee |
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Apr 29 2006, 04:29 PM
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#109
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Moving Target Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 453 Joined: 15-August 02 From: Kansas City, MO Member No.: 3,116 |
Well, just when I thought this thread was dying. LOL =) |
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Apr 29 2006, 05:34 PM
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#110
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Moving Target Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 453 Joined: 15-August 02 From: Kansas City, MO Member No.: 3,116 |
It seems like the bulk of all personal transactions that don't go through certified credsticks go through commlinks instead. The commlink stores a SIN (fake or real) and allows you access to the bank accounts associated with that SIN. The problem, as you have guessed, is that all normal transactions can be/are scrutinized as part of your available credit history. The Johnson and Sticks (like most off the books transactions like this) are probably using an offshore bank that does not report transaction histories. See below...
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Apr 29 2006, 05:35 PM
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#111
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 684 Joined: 8-April 06 From: My dorm room Member No.: 8,438 |
I think I'm in love with you. :love: |
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Apr 29 2006, 06:06 PM
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#112
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jacked in Group: Admin Posts: 9,414 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 463 |
Thanks! That makes some sense. Quite similar to using a certified credstick, really. The datatrail just goes to {void} then. Bye Thanee |
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Apr 30 2006, 06:18 AM
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#113
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Free Spirit Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,948 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Bloomington, IN UCAS Member No.: 1,920 |
Cool, I'm gone for about a month and my first day back draw the wrath of winterhawk11. I really expected Synner to slam me back into place, but since I mention him now, he should pipe in soon. ;)
winterhawk11, thanks for addressing my small correction of DS buddy for freelancer buddy, but missing my point or ignoring it. I did not mean to imply you were showing favoritism in selecting stories. I did mean I feel it is shameful for a freelancer like yourself or AH to even want to submit. Do you need to stroke your ego? Surely the payment of a book is insignificant and can be procured through other freelancer assignments. I mention you two because you both have relatively well known web sites of your own where you could publish all the short stories you wish until your fingertips go numb. Why steal this opportunity from someone trying to break into the field? Competition would be good for the customer, but poor for the present authors. The Shadowrun freelancer fraternity seems like a tight group and one hard to break into. These short story submissions seem the perfect place to solicit and discover new talent. You have explained the editor(s) do not care at all about exploiting the opportunity to discover new talent. Buying and publishing the first work for this short story push from an established freelancer, which the reviews say has some problems, reinforces the notion of the old boy network and priority to previously published authors - whether it exists or not. Sorry you fail to see this or decided to ignore the implication when choosing the first story. I have to go by the reviews so far because I have fallen asleep twice trying to read the story. There have also been a couple of sentences that I had to read 4 or 5 times to figure out exatly what the writer was saying, and wondering why he did not just say it. This leads to my one criticism so far - the language and syntax used speaks of an educated person with an extensive vocabulary or a handy thesaurus. However, the story is told in first person present tense from a starving chiphead street operative. The result is jarring, detracts from the mood/tone of the story, and contributes nothing. Yes, it would take a major rewrite to correct, but it needs it and should have been caught earlier, or the story rejected. So far, I have not encountered Sticks, only Straw Man, so my Shapcano comment may be incorrect based on the reports of other reviewers. Everyone will soon be able to critique SLJames writing ability. He has submitted a piece of fiction to me. However, as in the past, the authors will remain anonymous until a winner is declared. This post has been edited by tisoz: Apr 30 2006, 09:28 AM |
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Apr 30 2006, 06:42 AM
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#114
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Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
Remember though that the one book that AH has put his mark on (that I know of at least) Shadows of Latin America, didn't make it out the pipe. Also remember that the whole reason that AH writes all this stuff for SR, including the Ancient Files, is because he loves SR, and puts a lot of work in to it. He hasn't really gotten to put a lot of stuff out because of the tragedy (IMO) of SoLA. I was really looking forward to that book personally.
The whole reason AH is a freelancer is because he's been working at it for a long time. The reason Robyn is writing adventures now (and SB's) is because she's been writing SR for a long time. Even seen her home page and read her stories there? They're damn long, and more importantly good. Which means she puts a lot of time in to them. So why shouldn't they want to write if it's what got them started in the first place? Because they're 'official' now? AH has written a lot of stuff. I love the rules things he's put out. Some of the fiction I've liked more than others. THe thing with the otaku kids was disturbing. The Story with FastJack during the crash was, IMO, awesome, and I wish that one was on the official SR page personally. As for DogDays, I had no idea who wrote it (apparetnly I didn't look that closely) before hand, and there were things that I did and did not like about it. What I found that I didn't like the most was that the character didn't do what I would have done in a game. So f**ing what. That seems to be most people's problem with the story. I still liked the story because it did what they're trying to do for SR4. Bring the power level down, give more examples of dystopia and dehumanization from cyber. Grit and some distrubing elements (cyber dog eating people, c'mon). So chill, keep writing your stories, and let everyone else write theirs. I don't write personally. I draw. Half my drawings come out crap, quarter I keep to myself because I don't much approve of them. Some of them I show folks becuase I'm proud of them. I think I'm pretty good, but I haven't posted any of them here. Partly because it's a pain to burn a disc, bring it to work, and get my work CPU to decide to like it, so that I can up load it. Partly because I don't want to deal with all the crap that comes with posting something that is, to me ,that personal. someone else's turn on the soap box. |
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Apr 30 2006, 07:00 AM
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#115
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 296 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Usually under a cat Member No.: 864 |
Hey, tisoz. That wasn't "wrath." If it was, there'd be more bad words and a lot more sarcasm. This is polite discourse. :D
Well, first of all, I believe I'm not the only one here who might have missed the point. The SR web fiction isn't necessarily designed as a vehicle to help new writers break into the freelancer list. If that happens, that's wonderful. We can use some new blood. But that's not its primary purpose. That purpose is to publish some Shadowrun 4 fiction for people to read (and hopefully enjoy). Whether that comes from a freelancer or a nonfreelancer isn't relevant. As I've said many times before--if it's good, it gets considered. If it isn't, it gets politely rejected. If it's borderline, its author is asked for rewrites. Why did AH submit? I don't know--I'd guess it's because he had a story he wanted to tell. I truly doubt he's in it for the book, since he's been working on most of the latest books and gets comp copies already. But to accuse him of "stealing an opportunity" isn't really fair. He wrote a story. Elissa and I both liked it enough to work with him on it. He followed directions, he polished it up, he did what was asked of him. He treated the assignment like a professional one. I'm currently working with some other authors (some freelancer, some not) on upcoming stories, and they're doing the same thing.
I don't understand what you mean by this. How have I explained that the editors don't care? Please read my paragraph above, because that's my answer. As to the "freelancer fraternity," while I'll agree that it isn't the easiest thing to get one's foot in the door, I can tell you what you can do to stay there once you do, because that part's really easy: Write well. Meet deadlines. Be willing to work with others and take both direction and constructive criticism. Know when to back down on pushing your agenda. Don't be obnoxious. That's about it, really. Once you're in and have proven that you can handle the assignments, believe me, we can use you.
Or it might imply that, at that particular point in time, that story was the best of the current crop of submissions. There's no malice here, and no favoritism. I personally didn't think the story was anywhere near as horrible as people here seem to, but it's easy to pick things apart from the sidelines. And that's fine--everyone has every right to criticize what's published. A little civility might be nice, but that's not something that can (or should) be compelled. BTW, just as an aside: the "Sticks" in the story has no relationship to Shapcano's Sticks, nor was he meant to. He's one of the core characters listed on the fiction guidelines page. |
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Apr 30 2006, 09:25 AM
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#116
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Free Spirit Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,948 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Bloomington, IN UCAS Member No.: 1,920 |
I thought I pointed this out:
It is precisely because they are so prolific, well known and easily found on their own web site. If they want people to read their staory all they need do is post it. An announcement here or there such as SR Writer's Forum will have everyone remotely interested flocking to their site. As in my original post's analogy, it is like a minor league baseball player [SR Freelancer] feeling the need to compete in a coed softball league [SR website short story submission]. I'll push the analogy a buit further as the ballplayer having his personal, free admission, easily accessible trophy room [web site] where he could display his achievements. What's their motivation? All my explanations are rather rude or non-flattering, so I'll omit them. I am not saying I nor no one else should be able to enjoy their work. I do enjoy it and know where I can find it.
Like I said, I am away for a month and my post causes you to break your silence (:)):
Whatever is said seems to get escalated to something else, and any time I state an opinion or write about the SR short story project, I have someone thinking I am bombing it. Sorry: free fiction = good. |
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Apr 30 2006, 09:34 AM
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#117
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Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
I get what your saying, I just disagree. I guess my POV is that SR should be about really good flavor and depth, since that's what attracted me to it in the first place. I get bored watch baseball, much less minor league . So why would I want to want to watch a little league game if my kid isn't in it? Why would I want to read a story if it isn't the top quality available?
WH said that AH's was the best one that was there. What if the others were complete crap? I guess I'm jsut the type of guy that prefers good quality he knows to garbage that I don't. There's a reason I don't know the garbage. Just to be clear, I', not saying that every other submission was garbage. But if AH's was the best of them, why not put it out there for us? Besides, just because AH's made it, doesn't mean that everything else on WH's desk is going in the trash. |
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Apr 30 2006, 10:08 AM
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#118
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Free Spirit Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,948 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Bloomington, IN UCAS Member No.: 1,920 |
I'm not sure you get it, so fuck the analogy. There are millionaire authors living the good life off the fruits of their labor, then there are full time authors able to support themselves off the fruits of their labor. Then there are Authors who supplement their income from the fruits of their labors. On the bottom end of this category are Shadowrun freelancers who are lucky to see actual money and from what I hear get a significant portion of their compensation in product. Then there are the authors involved in this short story project who are getting paid with an SR book. Why would an author higher up on the foodchain want to compete with inferior opponents? Especially when said author could display his talent just as well and to about the same audience on his own? To answer your question about watching a little league game if your kid wasn't in it - for love of the game, to see the blossoming of new talent, to see the joy of the youngsters succeeding against equal talent. What if the other team had fucking Randy Johnson pitching as a ringer? Why would Randy Johnson even want to play in such a game? So much for little league. Why would you want to read a story that is not the top quality available? How do you know it is? How will you ever know if there are better stories and authors out there if the guys we have already read are the only ones to which we are exposed? I'm willing to wait and see, but so far it is the same old same old. |
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Apr 30 2006, 10:41 AM
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#119
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Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
That would be one cool little league game actually, although I feel sorry for the kid catching. I do understand what you're saying Tisoz. You feel that because they've already 'made it' that they shouldn't be the ones submitting to Fanpro to have their stories put up on the page. They should stand aside and let others give it a go and see what they can do. Get some fresh blood in and all that.
I like your idea of having people put their stories up on DS. I read them. I vote on them. It's a good way to get more stories, and I gloss over ones that I'm not really interested in. It's a good way to get more fiction. THat's what the srrpg fiction is. It isn't a way to get in to freelancing, although yeah, it probably does help. The way to get in is what Synner did, and I'm sure what Robyn did. Submit stuff to Rob to get it published in the books. In the mean time, I don't mind Robyn going through the editing process to get the best stories at all. I also don't listen to college radio stations or check out local bands. Maybe I'm lazy because I'm content to pick what I like out of what I'm offered for the most part. But who cares, I get what I like. I think I'm starting to ramble now, so I'll just let this one go. I've put in my two cents more times than was probably needed anyways, and I really don't want to argue/debate it back and forth endlessly with you. Agree to disagree or whatever I guess. Hope your morning's better than mine so far. What time zone are you in anyways? |
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Apr 30 2006, 02:21 PM
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#120
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
"Publish the best of a bad lot" is never a good strategy. If nothing's up to par, wait until something is and then put that up. Either that or, since it's already been acknowledged that there's a review/feedback/editing cycle here, actually spend the god-damned time to fix the problems with the story. Dog Days is still in need of serious work, but it is by no means unsalvageable—most of the problems are technical errors rather than fundamental storyline issues. If they'd just sent the story back a few more times, we might all be spared this discussion. ~J |
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Apr 30 2006, 08:25 PM
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#121
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
Doubtful. There will always be people to bag on something, especially when it gets posted to a board like DS. :) |
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Apr 30 2006, 08:31 PM
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#122
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Yes, but the discussion is frequently a lot shorter when the legitimate issues are fewer.
~J |
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Apr 30 2006, 08:33 PM
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#123
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 225 Joined: 1-November 05 Member No.: 7,917 |
Pohl's Law: Nothing is so good that someone, somewhere will not hate it
More of a life motto for me |
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May 1 2006, 02:32 AM
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#124
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
Maybe because, as has previously repeatedly been explained, this is not a competition. Ancient didn't take anyone's "spot" or "prize", nor was he competing with anyone. The "author higher up" (who btw has not been officially published) saw an opportunity to write a story about one of the new core characters and ran with it. His work happened to be chosen for the website, like other pieces that have since been submitted. Others have been shot down (myself included), and the ones that have been picked will be published regardless of whether they are established freelancers or complete newcomers. Ancient just happened to be one of the first people to submit under the Open Call for Fiction submissions that were posted on the website, linked here on DSF and sent round to all the regular freelancers. As to why he'd do it, that's simple too. Ancient felt like telling a story and the story happened to fit the submission outlines. He had a simple choice to make. Put it up on his website or try to get published and have his take on a character he likes become part of his official history. Pretty easy choice for a fanboy like Ancient. I fully intend to eventually submit at least 2 stories, and as with previous pieces I've had published on the website I also intend to wave payment entirely. I'm not doing it for the money and I'm certainly not doing it for another feather in my cap. So why? Writing in sourcebook format puts a lot of restrictions of style, atmosphere and themes on my writing and I relish the opportunity to write "straight" fiction. Since I have neither the time nor the inclination to submit a full novel to Wizkids, the short storys are an interesting way to flex that particualr creative muscle - and if they're written why not offer them up? As far as I'm concerned we're never going to have enough SR fiction up, and as long as its good, I don't care if its mine nth published material or Joe Schmoe's first effort. |
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May 1 2006, 03:40 AM
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#125
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,590 Joined: 11-September 04 Member No.: 6,650 |
Maybe I should submit some of my SR fictions
OTOH AH's story was good, except for the Metagamed ending. Seriously AH, rework the Grammer, Redo the ending and you got a real winner waiting to be born in there |
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