How can you "rig" a car without a control rig?

How can you "rig" a car without a control rig?

Ki Ryn View Member Profile	Apr 23 2006, 04:26 AM Post #1
Target Group: Members Posts: 39 Joined: 15-April 06 From: Louisville, Kentucky Member No.: 8,467	Page 341 says a "Rigger Adaption", when added to a vehicle, allows a character with a control rig to rig the vehicle. What does one add to a car in order to control it without a control rig (ie. using full VR via a comlink-simmodule-datajack)? Is pg. 341 in error mentioning ONLY control rigs, or are other places in error when they suggest one can be a rigger without a control rig? (Or am I in error just by nature of existing?)

warrior_allanon View Member Profile	Apr 23 2006, 04:33 AM Post #2
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 775 Joined: 31-March 05 From: florida Member No.: 7,273	its a simple matter of degree's, while through your commlink and trode paste or something of the sort you can control the car, with a control rig you become the car and are able to control other things more abley as well

Slump View Member Profile	Apr 23 2006, 06:20 AM Post #3
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 295 Joined: 10-July 05 Member No.: 7,492	There's a difference between driving by remote, and rigging. One could, in theory, drive by remote with a manual remote control (kids do this all the time). Of course, most people would want some feedback, so video feeds, radar data, and various gauge data would be relayed back to the controller. Rigging, however, is more in depth than just about anything. The only thing that really comes close to rigging is moving around in your own body. That sort of immersion requires the VCR and the rigger adaptation.

Rotbart van Dain... Rotbart van Dainig View Member Profile	Apr 23 2006, 09:24 AM Post #4
Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951	It seems, in SR4, that it is perfectly possible to go VR and jump into a Vehicle/Drone without an Control Rig or a Vehicle Black Box. Those seem to work like a SmartGun & SmartLink now - if both components are present, the user gets +2 dice.

mintcar

Apr 23 2006, 09:58 AM

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QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)

It seems, in SR4, that it is perfectly possible to go VR and jump into a Vehicle/Drone without an Control Rig or a Vehicle Black Box.

Those seem to work like a SmartGun & SmartLink now - if both components are present, the user gets +2 dice.

This has been proven by several quotes in the past, but I don't have time to find them right now. The wording on the Control Rig cyberware should be enough though. Also, there's a small mention of rigger adaption on page 238 that says: "The key difference that sets drones apart from ordinary vehicles is the rigger adaption that provides drones with a pilot program, which enables the drone to act independently of its controller to a limited degree."

It seems that by 2070 all vehicles are fitted with enough sensors to be controlled with VR, and rigging has become so close to hacking that all you need to do it is a commlink. But there's still a way of modifying your vehicle to take full advantage of all the rigger potential, and if you do that (and have a control rig implant) you get +2 bonus when in VR and the ability to control your vehicle in captain's chair mode.

Rotbart van Dain...

Apr 23 2006, 10:07 AM

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QUOTE (mintcar)

Also, there's a small mention of rigger adaption on page 238 that says: "The key difference that sets drones apart from ordinary vehicles is the rigger adaption that provides drones with a pilot program, which enables the drone to act independently of its controller to a limited degree."

Hrm... that's a 1:1 C&P from SR3, which is totally out of context in SR4:
Every Vehicle has a Pilot and Pilot can be installed on normal Devices, too... it's just a replacement for System now.

Vehicle combat and rigging rules only mention VR as a prequisite for the normal benefits.

BTW - SR4 does not feature the term captain's chair anymore... Issuing Commands works from any 'Mode'.

mintcar View Member Profile	Apr 23 2006, 12:32 PM Post #7
Karma Police Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,358 Joined: 22-July 04 From: Gothenburg, SE Member No.: 6,505	The quote is from SR4, but I agree. We may agree that both the isolated insinuation that you need a control rig to jump into a vehicle, that spawned this subject—and the mention of rigger adaption giving vehicles pilot rating, are leftovers from SR3 and should propably be ignored.

Ki Ryn View Member Profile	Apr 23 2006, 02:37 PM Post #8
Target Group: Members Posts: 39 Joined: 15-April 06 From: Louisville, Kentucky Member No.: 8,467	Hrm, if every car can be remote controlled (let alone jumped into) right off the shelf, then every car can be hacked as well. That is going to make our chase scenes much shorter.

mintcar View Member Profile	Apr 23 2006, 02:57 PM Post #9
Karma Police Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,358 Joined: 22-July 04 From: Gothenburg, SE Member No.: 6,505	We don't know either way. On one hand the control rig and rigger adaption is never mentioned as pre-requesits for the bennefits of VR driving, and all vehicles have pilot ratings. On the other hand there's one quote that says rigger adaption gives regular vehicles the same ability for independent action as drones by giving them a pilot rating (which they allready have), and there text about rigger adaption says it allows people with a control rig to rig the vehicle, and even though it never says people without a control rig can't—it seems to imply so, which would be new and important information in a seemingly out of place, obscure location in the book. Yet another case were each of us has to make up their own mind.

kigmatzomat View Member Profile	Apr 23 2006, 03:22 PM Post #10
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 909 Joined: 26-August 05 From: Louisville, KY (Well, Memphis, IN technically but you won't know where that is.) Member No.: 7,626	What we've decided (maybe a house rule) is that vehicles do not have the full "dog brain" of a drone without the rigger adaption. The default "pilot" can drive from point A to Point B and do so in a fashion that obeys traffic law but that's it. A default Pilot cannot be ordered to break traffic law in any fashion without resorting to manual controls. An adapted vehicle can be told to ignore traffic laws, follow another vehicle/person, perform an action when they see a person/vehicle (honk the horn/flash lights), or even attack/collide with something. We figure all vehicles with Pilot support AR/VR operation in "jumped in" mode just as a safety feature (lower thresholds and better response times? Heck yeah!).

hobgoblin

Apr 23 2006, 05:30 PM

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QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)

QUOTE (mintcar)

Also, there's a small mention of rigger adaption on page 238 that says: "The key difference that sets drones apart from ordinary vehicles is the rigger adaption that provides drones with a pilot program, which enables the drone to act independently of its controller to a limited degree."

Hrm... that's a 1:1 C&P from SR3, which is totally out of context in SR4:
Every Vehicle has a Pilot and Pilot can be installed on normal Devices, too... it's just a replacement for System now.

may i ask where its stated that i can load a pilot into my comlink to replace the system?

yesman View Member Profile	Apr 23 2006, 06:28 PM Post #12
Target Group: Members Posts: 79 Joined: 18-September 05 Member No.: 7,758	There was a really good thread before on the different ways to drive in 2070. Here it is: http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=11631

mintcar

Apr 23 2006, 07:00 PM

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QUOTE (kingmatzomat)

Of course, he's quoting the Combat section of the rules and not the Matrix/rigging section of the rules. I'm fairly certain that "rigging" in these instances is given a brief definition for convenience rather than as a definitive statement.

QUOTE (page 238)

RIGGING AND DRONES
Hackers (and technomancers) who focus on rigging drones and vehicles tend to favor diff erent gear and programs than regular system hackers. Riggers don’t usually focus on tweaking their commlink to be a hacking machine par excellence, though a high Firewall is essential for keeping hostile hackers out and preventing other riggers from hijacking their drones. Riggers also don’t usually spend the time or money to buy up or program their own top-notch hacking utilities, preferring instead to focus on a good Signal strength, good Scan, Command, Encrypt, and Sniff er programs, and of course, plenty of drones with amped Pilot, Response, and Firewall attributes of their own. Finally, riggers tend to focus less on Hacking and Software skills, relying heavily on Electronic Warfare and Hardware instead.

You'd think this paragraph would mention the necessity of a Control Rig, wouldn't you? Of corse, then it must be with the Control Rig.

QUOTE ( p.331)

Control Rig: This implant harnesses the raw data-coordinating and synchronization power of the middle brain for the express purpose of directly manipulating rigged vehicles/ drones. The control rig provides a +2 dice pool bonus on all Vehicle skill tests while the rigger is “jumped into” a vehicle/drone via full virtual reality. This bonus does not apply to other drone manipulation through the Matrix.

Oddly the Matrix Jargon block on p217 & 218 says:

QUOTE

Control Rig—An implant that enhances a rigger’s abilities when “jumped into” a vehicle (see p. 332).

Rigger—A user who “jumps into” a properly-adapted device (usually a drone, vehicle, or security system) in order to directly control it as if he was that device. Often equipped with a control rig (see p. 332).

Hmmm. Only "often" equipped with a control rig. Odd if it it is required to "rig."

If it requires circumlocution to come to a conclusion, Occam's Razor would say it is the wrong conclusion.

This post is what convinced me that time that you in fact do not need to have either rigger adaption or a control rig, though it helps.

mintcar

Apr 23 2006, 07:05 PM

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QUOTE (hobgoblin)

QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Apr 23 2006, 12:07 PM)

QUOTE (mintcar)

Also, there's a small mention of rigger adaption on page 238 that says: "The key difference that sets drones apart from ordinary vehicles is the rigger adaption that provides drones with a pilot program, which enables the drone to act independently of its controller to a limited degree."

Hrm... that's a 1:1 C&P from SR3, which is totally out of context in SR4:
Every Vehicle has a Pilot and Pilot can be installed on normal Devices, too... it's just a replacement for System now.

may i ask where its stated that i can load a pilot into my comlink to replace the system?

There has been discussions about how you could make drone commlinks by replacing the system with a pilot, and so get past the limit of how many agents you can run. I personally think it's an exploit that should not be allowed.

hobgoblin View Member Profile	Apr 23 2006, 09:08 PM Post #15
panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242	and ill second that. if you want a drone in your pocket, get a micro-drone ;)

James McMurray View Member Profile	Apr 23 2006, 09:34 PM Post #16
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957	We've played it so that vehicle pilot ratings help you drive, while upgrading it to a drone pilot rating will help it drive itself.

Geekkake

Apr 23 2006, 09:41 PM

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QUOTE (James McMurray)

We've played it so that vehicle pilot ratings help you drive, while upgrading it to a drone pilot rating will help it drive itself.

I dunno about this. Cars have been able to drive themselves for pretty much the length of Shadowrun's history. It's just an issue of how well.

James McMurray View Member Profile	Apr 23 2006, 09:42 PM Post #18
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957	I didn't say we were doing it the canon way, I just said that's how we do it. :)

Geekkake

Apr 23 2006, 09:53 PM

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QUOTE (James McMurray)

I didn't say we were doing it the canon way, I just said that's how we do it. :)

Touche.

James McMurray View Member Profile	Apr 23 2006, 09:55 PM Post #20
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957	Also, it hasn't come up yet, but we might allow the pilot rating on avehicle to do minor things, like bring it to a safe stop if the driver goes unconscious or something. But there is definitely a line between what a vehicle can do and what a drone can do, we just picked a decent sounding (and simple) place to put it.

Rotbart van Dain...

Apr 23 2006, 11:39 PM

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QUOTE (Ki Ryn)

Hrm, if every car can be remote controlled (let alone jumped into) right off the shelf, then every car can be hacked as well.

It can be hacked anyway - it's a node.

QUOTE (James McMurray)

But there is definitely a line between what a vehicle can do and what a drone can do, we just picked a decent sounding (and simple) place to put it.

There was an artificial line, and in SR4, it's gone for good.

De Badd Ass

Apr 24 2006, 01:29 AM

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QUOTE (Ki Ryn)

Hrm, if every car can be remote controlled (let alone jumped into) right off the shelf, then every car can be hacked as well.

That is going to make our chase scenes much shorter.

From the RAW: "Nearly any kind of vehicle—matchbox-sized cars, dwarfsized
rotorcraft, ground patrol vehicles the size of a large dog,
even modified sports cars—may serve as drones. The key difference
that sets drones apart from ordinary vehicles is the rigger
adaptation that provides drones with a Pilot program, which
enables the drone to act independently of its controller to a limited
degree.

All drones that are incapable of carrying passengers are
usually automatically pre-adapted for rigger control. Passenger
vehicles or larger passenger drones are not usually pre-adapted,
but can be adapted quickly by the manufacturer, a mechanic, or
even a rigger character (see Rigger Adaptation, p. 341)."

Every car MAY serve as a drone. Every car is NOT PRE-ADAPTED to serve as a drone. You can only remote control passenger vehicles that have been adapted.

James McMurray View Member Profile	Apr 24 2006, 02:10 AM Post #23
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957	What he said. The line still exists, it just isn't well defined, as they never tell you what a non-drone rig modified vehicle can do on its own, if anything. Although from that passage it would appear that no vehicles can act on their own at all unless they've been drone modified.

Ki Ryn View Member Profile	Apr 24 2006, 02:11 AM Post #24
Target Group: Members Posts: 39 Joined: 15-April 06 From: Louisville, Kentucky Member No.: 8,467	That is certainly one valid interpretation. And if it were the only one, this would be a much shorter thread.

James McMurray View Member Profile	Apr 24 2006, 02:14 AM Post #25
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957	Yeppers.

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