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Ki Ryn
Page 341 says a "Rigger Adaption", when added to a vehicle, allows a character with a control rig to rig the vehicle.

What does one add to a car in order to control it without a control rig (ie. using full VR via a comlink-simmodule-datajack)?

Is pg. 341 in error mentioning ONLY control rigs, or are other places in error when they suggest one can be a rigger without a control rig? (Or am I in error just by nature of existing?)




warrior_allanon
its a simple matter of degree's, while through your commlink and trode paste or something of the sort you can control the car, with a control rig you become the car and are able to control other things more abley as well
Slump
There's a difference between driving by remote, and rigging.

One could, in theory, drive by remote with a manual remote control (kids do this all the time). Of course, most people would want some feedback, so video feeds, radar data, and various gauge data would be relayed back to the controller.

Rigging, however, is more in depth than just about anything. The only thing that really comes close to rigging is moving around in your own body. That sort of immersion requires the VCR and the rigger adaptation.
Rotbart van Dainig
It seems, in SR4, that it is perfectly possible to go VR and jump into a Vehicle/Drone without an Control Rig or a Vehicle Black Box.

Those seem to work like a SmartGun & SmartLink now - if both components are present, the user gets +2 dice.
mintcar
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)
It seems, in SR4, that it is perfectly possible to go VR and jump into a Vehicle/Drone without an Control Rig or a Vehicle Black Box.

Those seem to work like a SmartGun & SmartLink now - if both components are present, the user gets +2 dice.

This has been proven by several quotes in the past, but I don't have time to find them right now. The wording on the Control Rig cyberware should be enough though. Also, there's a small mention of rigger adaption on page 238 that says: "The key difference that sets drones apart from ordinary vehicles is the rigger adaption that provides drones with a pilot program, which enables the drone to act independently of its controller to a limited degree."

It seems that by 2070 all vehicles are fitted with enough sensors to be controlled with VR, and rigging has become so close to hacking that all you need to do it is a commlink. But there's still a way of modifying your vehicle to take full advantage of all the rigger potential, and if you do that (and have a control rig implant) you get +2 bonus when in VR and the ability to control your vehicle in captain's chair mode.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (mintcar)
Also, there's a small mention of rigger adaption on page 238 that says: "The key difference that sets drones apart from ordinary vehicles is the rigger adaption that provides drones with a pilot program, which enables the drone to act independently of its controller to a limited degree."

Hrm... that's a 1:1 C&P from SR3, which is totally out of context in SR4:
Every Vehicle has a Pilot and Pilot can be installed on normal Devices, too... it's just a replacement for System now.

Vehicle combat and rigging rules only mention VR as a prequisite for the normal benefits.

BTW - SR4 does not feature the term captain's chair anymore... Issuing Commands works from any 'Mode'.
mintcar
The quote is from SR4, but I agree. We may agree that both the isolated insinuation that you need a control rig to jump into a vehicle, that spawned this subject—and the mention of rigger adaption giving vehicles pilot rating, are leftovers from SR3 and should propably be ignored.
Ki Ryn
Hrm, if every car can be remote controlled (let alone jumped into) right off the shelf, then every car can be hacked as well.

That is going to make our chase scenes much shorter.


mintcar
We don't know either way. On one hand the control rig and rigger adaption is never mentioned as pre-requesits for the bennefits of VR driving, and all vehicles have pilot ratings. On the other hand there's one quote that says rigger adaption gives regular vehicles the same ability for independent action as drones by giving them a pilot rating (which they allready have), and there text about rigger adaption says it allows people with a control rig to rig the vehicle, and even though it never says people without a control rig can't—it seems to imply so, which would be new and important information in a seemingly out of place, obscure location in the book. Yet another case were each of us has to make up their own mind.
kigmatzomat
What we've decided (maybe a house rule) is that vehicles do not have the full "dog brain" of a drone without the rigger adaption. The default "pilot" can drive from point A to Point B and do so in a fashion that obeys traffic law but that's it. A default Pilot cannot be ordered to break traffic law in any fashion without resorting to manual controls.

An adapted vehicle can be told to ignore traffic laws, follow another vehicle/person, perform an action when they see a person/vehicle (honk the horn/flash lights), or even attack/collide with something.

We figure all vehicles with Pilot support AR/VR operation in "jumped in" mode just as a safety feature (lower thresholds and better response times? Heck yeah!).
hobgoblin
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)
QUOTE (mintcar)
Also, there's a small mention of rigger adaption on page 238 that says: "The key difference that sets drones apart from ordinary vehicles is the rigger adaption that provides drones with a pilot program, which enables the drone to act independently of its controller to a limited degree."

Hrm... that's a 1:1 C&P from SR3, which is totally out of context in SR4:
Every Vehicle has a Pilot and Pilot can be installed on normal Devices, too... it's just a replacement for System now.

may i ask where its stated that i can load a pilot into my comlink to replace the system?
yesman
There was a really good thread before on the different ways to drive in 2070. Here it is:
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=11631
mintcar
QUOTE (kingmatzomat)
Of course, he's quoting the Combat section of the rules and not the Matrix/rigging section of the rules.  I'm fairly certain that "rigging" in these instances is given a brief definition for convenience rather than as a definitive statement. 

QUOTE (page 238)

RIGGING AND DRONES
Hackers (and technomancers) who focus on rigging drones and vehicles tend to favor diff erent gear and programs than regular system hackers. Riggers don’t usually focus on tweaking their commlink to be a hacking machine par excellence, though a high Firewall is essential for keeping hostile hackers out and preventing other riggers from hijacking their drones. Riggers also don’t usually spend the time or money to buy up or program their own top-notch hacking utilities, preferring instead to focus on a good Signal strength, good Scan, Command, Encrypt, and Sniff er programs, and of course, plenty of drones with amped Pilot, Response, and Firewall attributes of their own. Finally, riggers tend to focus less on Hacking and Software skills, relying heavily on Electronic Warfare and Hardware instead.


You'd think this paragraph would mention the necessity of a Control Rig, wouldn't you? Of corse, then it must be with the Control Rig.

QUOTE ( p.331)

Control Rig: This implant harnesses the raw data-coordinating and synchronization power of the middle brain for the express purpose of directly manipulating rigged vehicles/ drones. The control rig provides a +2 dice pool bonus on all Vehicle skill tests while the rigger is “jumped into” a vehicle/drone via full virtual reality. This bonus does not apply to other drone manipulation through the Matrix.


Oddly the Matrix Jargon block on p217 & 218 says:
QUOTE

Control Rig—An implant that enhances a rigger’s abilities when “jumped into” a vehicle (see p. 332).

Rigger—A user who “jumps into” a properly-adapted device (usually a drone, vehicle, or security system) in order to directly control it as if he was that device. Often equipped with a control rig (see p. 332).


Hmmm. Only "often" equipped with a control rig. Odd if it it is required to "rig."

If it requires circumlocution to come to a conclusion, Occam's Razor would say it is the wrong conclusion.


This post is what convinced me that time that you in fact do not need to have either rigger adaption or a control rig, though it helps.
mintcar
QUOTE (hobgoblin)
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Apr 23 2006, 12:07 PM)
QUOTE (mintcar)
Also, there's a small mention of rigger adaption on page 238 that says: "The key difference that sets drones apart from ordinary vehicles is the rigger adaption that provides drones with a pilot program, which enables the drone to act independently of its controller to a limited degree."

Hrm... that's a 1:1 C&P from SR3, which is totally out of context in SR4:
Every Vehicle has a Pilot and Pilot can be installed on normal Devices, too... it's just a replacement for System now.

may i ask where its stated that i can load a pilot into my comlink to replace the system?

There has been discussions about how you could make drone commlinks by replacing the system with a pilot, and so get past the limit of how many agents you can run. I personally think it's an exploit that should not be allowed.
hobgoblin
and ill second that. if you want a drone in your pocket, get a micro-drone wink.gif
James McMurray
We've played it so that vehicle pilot ratings help you drive, while upgrading it to a drone pilot rating will help it drive itself.
Geekkake
QUOTE (James McMurray)
We've played it so that vehicle pilot ratings help you drive, while upgrading it to a drone pilot rating will help it drive itself.

I dunno about this. Cars have been able to drive themselves for pretty much the length of Shadowrun's history. It's just an issue of how well.
James McMurray
I didn't say we were doing it the canon way, I just said that's how we do it. smile.gif
Geekkake
QUOTE (James McMurray)
I didn't say we were doing it the canon way, I just said that's how we do it. smile.gif

Touche.
James McMurray
Also, it hasn't come up yet, but we might allow the pilot rating on avehicle to do minor things, like bring it to a safe stop if the driver goes unconscious or something. But there is definitely a line between what a vehicle can do and what a drone can do, we just picked a decent sounding (and simple) place to put it.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Ki Ryn)
Hrm, if every car can be remote controlled (let alone jumped into) right off the shelf, then every car can be hacked as well.

It can be hacked anyway - it's a node.

QUOTE (James McMurray)
But there is definitely a line between what a vehicle can do and what a drone can do, we just picked a decent sounding (and simple) place to put it.

There was an artificial line, and in SR4, it's gone for good.
De Badd Ass
QUOTE (Ki Ryn)
Hrm, if every car can be remote controlled (let alone jumped into) right off the shelf, then every car can be hacked as well.

That is going to make our chase scenes much shorter.


From the RAW: "Nearly any kind of vehicle—matchbox-sized cars, dwarfsized
rotorcraft, ground patrol vehicles the size of a large dog,
even modified sports cars—may serve as drones. The key difference
that sets drones apart from ordinary vehicles is the rigger
adaptation that provides drones with a Pilot program, which
enables the drone to act independently of its controller to a limited
degree.

All drones that are incapable of carrying passengers are
usually automatically pre-adapted for rigger control. Passenger
vehicles or larger passenger drones are not usually pre-adapted,
but can be adapted quickly by the manufacturer, a mechanic, or
even a rigger character (see Rigger Adaptation, p. 341)."

Every car MAY serve as a drone. Every car is NOT PRE-ADAPTED to serve as a drone. You can only remote control passenger vehicles that have been adapted.
James McMurray
What he said. The line still exists, it just isn't well defined, as they never tell you what a non-drone rig modified vehicle can do on its own, if anything. Although from that passage it would appear that no vehicles can act on their own at all unless they've been drone modified.
Ki Ryn
That is certainly one valid interpretation. And if it were the only one, this would be a much shorter thread.

James McMurray
Yeppers.
Xane
So where does all this leave the Technomancer in the mix?
De Badd Ass
QUOTE (James McMurray)
... they never tell you what a non-drone rig modified vehicle can do on its own, if anything. Although from that passage it would appear that no vehicles can act on their own at all unless they've been drone modified.

"Drone—Unmanned vehicles, typically controlled
via direct wireless link or through the Matrix."

"The key difference that sets drones apart from ordinary vehicles
is the rigger adaptation that provides drones with a Pilot program,
which enables the drone to act independently of its controller to
a limited degree."

"Drones acting on their own use their own Pilot and autosoft
(see p. 239) ratings for all necessary tests, and act on their
own Initiative (see p. 239)."

I agree. No vehicle can act on its own without a Pilot program. Rigger Adaptation provides the Pilot program. In addition, a vehicle needs autosofts in order to act on its own. When equipped with autosofts, the vehicle operating on its own uses Pilot + (appropriate) Autosoft for vehicle tests.

I also conclude that a drone can not default to Pilot if it doesn't have the appropriate autosoft.

************************

Now, I step out on the slender tree limb swaying gently in the eye of the hurricane. How long can this calm last?

My real life vehicle has the most rudimentary Pilot Program. Subaru and most other manufacturers call it cruise control. All it can do is mantain a set speed. When I step on the gas or the brake, the cruise control disengages. I believe that no one in their right mind would drive a car whose cruise control worked differently.

My PCs would not DRIVE a vehicle whose rigger adaptation did not defer to manual control. What PC or NPC in their right mind would do such a thing? I have to believe that manual controls can not be remotely hacked. I also believe that there is a mechanical switch in the vehicle that disengages the rigger adaptation much like the on/off switch for cruise control.

OTOH: I'll agree that all bets are off for "fly-by-wire" systems. When "flying" (driving, boating, etc.) on instruments, e.g. IFR vs VFR, or manually driving a car while remotely operating the weapons, or flying a Banshee; then the sensors, the weapons, or the computer assist can be hacked. I also agree that a vehicle operated via local rigger control, i.e. fiberoptic link, is subject to hacking.

The final question becomes: what is standard operating procedure? How often do people with cruise control use it? How often do riggers operate their vehicles "the old fashioned way"? I'll agree that the default condition of rigger adaptation is ON, as long as touching the manual controls automatically overrides computer control.

I remember a number of customized vehicles in SR3 days that had the manual controls removed. That was supposed to make them HARDER to steal. LOL spin.gif
De Badd Ass
QUOTE (Ki Ryn)
Page 341 says a "Rigger Adaption", when added to a vehicle, allows a character with a control rig to rig the vehicle.

What does one add to a car in order to control it without a control rig (ie. using full VR via a comlink-simmodule-datajack)?

Is pg. 341 in error mentioning ONLY control rigs, or are other places in error when they suggest one can be a rigger without a control rig? (Or am I in error just by nature of existing?)

Going back to the original question, this is where I saw that tree limb three quarters of the way through. I believe FanPro used a little too much cut-and-paste. Time to supplement the RAW with house rules.

It comes down to this: Does the manufacturer of a vehicle not equipped with a Pilot Program hook up the accelerator, brakes, steering wheel, etc. to the standard System Program? IF that is the case, then anyone with a commlink/technobrain can remote control a vehicle.

OTOH: If THAT is the case, then it would seem that adapting a vehicle to rigger control would be nothing more than a software upgrade - replacing the standard System Program with a Pilot Program. "...can be adapted quickly by the manufacturer, a mechanic, or even a rigger character" suggests that rigger adaptation is a hardware upgrade.

I'd rule that a vehicle must be rigger adapted in order to be DRIVEN remotely, and anyone with a commlink/technobrain can remotely DRIVE a rigger adapted vehicle. I say DRIVE because I believe the manufacturer does connect parts of the vehicle to the standard System Program: door locks, onStar, Lojack, remote starter, navi-comp, etc. I'll agree that the door locks, Lojack, etc. of a non-rigged vehicle can be hacked.

------------

"To clear that glitch, pull over, close all the windows, and reboot the vehicle" -- GM-Microdeck Vista70 Users guide.
Dissonance
I don't know about you, but if I broke into a car that had no steering wheel or pedals or dashboard or whatnot, and only a port for a datajack connection?

I'd be kind of SOL, lacking a datajack or trodeset, and I figure your average car thief would, too.
De Badd Ass
QUOTE (Dissonance)
I don't know about you, but if I broke into a car that had no steering wheel or pedals or dashboard or whatnot, and only a port for a datajack connection?

I'd be kind of SOL, lacking a datajack or trodeset, and I figure your average car thief would, too.

That's true in SR3. In SR4 you just need a commlink like James Bond has, and some cracking ability. You wouldn't even have to break in. Just command the car to roll down the windows as it drives by u. biggrin.gif

I guess a talented finger helps.
Jaid
not to mention trodes are dirt cheap in SR4. so that car thief almost definitely has them, imo.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (De Badd Ass)
You can only remote control passenger vehicles that have been adapted.

Even in SR3, remote control was perfectly possible via maintance access of the transponder.

QUOTE (De Badd Ass)
If THAT is the case, then it would seem that adapting a vehicle to rigger control would be nothing more than a software upgrade - replacing the standard System Program with a Pilot Program.

Replacing System with Pilot is not installing a black blox.
There is no real reason for the black box being hardware, but there isn't for the smartgun, too... it's just a game declaration.
Ki Ryn

pg. 342: a Mercury Comet Sedan has Pilot(2)

pg. 216: Pilot - A robotic brain program, similar to System, but including semi-autonomous decision-making abilities.


So maybe your car can think out of the box but can't motivate itself? The Black Box would then have to add the hardware to mechanically control gas, steering, etc..

If a Rigger Adaption is required to jump into a car, then so is a cyberwear Control Rig (or else the Rigger Adaption text on 341 needs erratta).

Something needs erratta anyway, as the text is contradictory as written. Depending on which part you consider in error, cars may or may not be able to be remote controlled 'off the shelf'.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Ki Ryn)
So maybe your car can think out of the box but can't motivate itself?

Given the matrix chapter rules - it can.
mdynna
I don't think I saw it mentioned in this thread: Doesn't having a VCR implant give the Rigger a -1 Threshold on all driving tests? That, IMO, is the biggest difference between VR driving and Rigged driving.
Rotbart van Dainig
Nope.

Any character using AR to control a vehicle gets +1 to Dice Pool.
Any character using VR to control a vehicle gets -1 to Threshold.

Additionally, if both Control Rig an black box are present, the character gets +2 to Dice Pool.
Ki Ryn
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)
Any character using VR to control a vehicle gets -1 to Threshold.

Additionally, if both Control Rig an black box are present, the character gets +2 to Dice Pool.

So that strongly suggests that you can jump into (ie. "rig") a vehicle without using a Control Rig, which contradicts the Rigger Adapation text.

hobgoblin
the more i think about it, the more im looking forward to unwired. hopefully it will clear up all of the strangeness of the new matrix and rigger stuff...
kigmatzomat
I think the "Pilot" rating in the vehicle stats section was a remnant of SR1/2/3 and reflects some in-house blind spots where rigging was concerned given the rather fragmented information on rigging and the way vehicles are interacted with. Just call the rating of non-drones the BBB to be an "autonav" rating rather than Pilot.

An Autonav can drive a car just fine but can't do a dang thing beyond get from Point A to Point B. Higher rated Autonavs are capable of more complex routing options as well as superior abilities at avoiding accidents. But Autonavs cannot think outside the "drive the car while obeying traffic laws" box. They are are idiot savante drivers compared to the more complex autonomous AIs used in rigger-adapted vehicles.
De Badd Ass
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)
QUOTE (De Badd Ass)
If THAT is the case, then it would seem that adapting a vehicle to rigger control would be nothing more than a software upgrade - replacing the standard System Program with a Pilot Program.

Replacing System with Pilot is not installing a black blox.
There is no real reason for the black box being hardware, but there isn't for the smartgun, too... it's just a game declaration.

The Smartgun needs hardware to pull the trigger.
Rotbart van Dainig
Nope. Any weapon in SR4 can be operated electronically.

A Smartgun is just another set of sensors, at best.
mintcar
Yep, smartgun hardware part must be a sensor. The reason you need smartlink as an implant instead of just a program on your commlink must be that there needs to be a sensor in your eye too.
hobgoblin
smartlink dont have to be a implant now. just use it with AR glasses.
that is unless i missed something...

hell, that even worked in the older versions, only that the googles didnt give you the same high benifit that a implant did...
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