Random houserule Options

[Monnock]

Right to the point: I feel that all the spells that require a single stat to resist are too powerful, in that it seems unfair to have someone have to make a check using a single ability score (which may not even be linked to their build at all) vs. a mage who gets to use their primary ability score (magic) and a skill which they may specialize in where the results could mean the character is placed in a situation where eather they are dead (an overcharged powerbolt at force 10), they might as well be dead (Control body/mind - especially the mass variety, Influence), or an entire challenge is negated (Mind Probe, Stealth, Invisibility).

As I said, it just seems grossly unfair to the target to have to make a check that they may only pass if there is a mage there holding their hand with counterspelling. In essence, I want to make mages into something more of an independent unit rather than a be-all-end-all jack of all trades, and I feel that the best way to do this is by addressing these spells at their core.

The most heavy handed option I considered was to allow the subject to make their checks at the attribute x 2 (When I re-read this I figured that I should point out that I should make it clear that I'm only refering to spells that are resisted by a single stat with no other normal modifiers such as armor). This would mean that the average mage (spellcasting 3, magic 3) would have the same number of dice as the average person (ability score of 3 x 2). On one hand this would certainly curb the power of their spells, on the other hand it dramatically reduces their effectivness. Spells with a high thresholds such as mind-probe would be very difficult to pull off (however I feel that this is a good thing - it turns mind probe into a tool rather than a freebe).

The second option I considered was more in line with how magic works. Basically, a character has 6 minus total essence lost as a sort of magical 'resistance' stat. A character with four essence would have a resistance score of two, for example. For any spell that effects the character directly or through their lifeforce they gain that number as a bonus to resist that spell. This favors street samurai who would become a sort of antithesis of a mage, though indirect damage spells would still effect them normally.

Note that in both of these cases, any spell where additional checks are made to continue resisting the spell (such as any control spell) would be made as normal. I know that force limits the number of hits also so that may be a factor that may throw things out of whack as it would make lower force spells even more useless, however on the flip-side of that it would only render them more useless against targets that you would use higher force spells against anyways.

I offhandedly considered using both, however that would just be excessive, as eather one or the other would suffice in 'curbing' a mages power. As a concession, I figure I may lower the drain value of these spells by a point to reflect their diminished power, though I have very little experiance with how drain values play out other than my mage scoffing at them unless he is overcharging them, so I figure it may not even be needed. The question I have is, are there any unforseen consiquences of doing this?

PS: As a side note, I like to customize my games to fit how I would like to play out, though I always take in player input. I just like to get as much feedback as possible so I can make better judgements.

[Shrike30]

Right to the point: I feel that all the submachineguns that require an opposed to-hit check followed by a body plus armor check are too powerful, in that it seems unfair to have someone have to make checks using several ability scores (which may not even be linked to their build at all) vs. a samurai who gets to use their primary ability score (agility) and a skill which they may specialize in where the results could mean the character is placed in a situation where eather they are dead (a Smartgun firing a long burst of EX-EX, with an arm gyro), they might as well be dead (the gun was loaded with Stick'n'Shock instead), or an entire challenge is negated (the samurai fires more than once, completely eliminating the guards in front of the building without the neighbors hearing, because it's suppressed).

........

Combat in general is pretty lethal this time around, and I haven't noticed combat magic being drastically overpowered. My games have usually house-ruled Mind Control out of existence due to the fact that it's lame (players hate it when it gets used against them, GMs hate it when it gets used against them), but most of the "ninja mage" abilities have relatively simple technological means of being circumvented (pheromone scanners, monowire stretched across a hallway, and pressure plates in the floors are just some of these).

Magic's a bit of a bitch to work with, but it's not amazingly overpowered. You just need to remember that the SR world has had magic floating around in it for 60-odd years now, and if people had their security layouts compensating for magicians as badly as those that most groups seem to run, runner mages would all have retired a long time ago, after putting most of the AAA's out of business.

Trust me. The first time your group's mage slaps invisibility on someone and tells him to go ahead and sneak into the building, and then he gets jumped by a F8 spirit just inside the hallway and comes running back out with the thing on his tail, it'll get their attention. :grinbig:

[Monnock]

I think really my biggest issue is with mind-control and mind-probe, though I'm usually reluctant to just take something out of the game. I've always tended to view magic rather harshly after playing DnD, and I think that perhaps my view on it is jaded by the player who is playing the mage currently (no roleplaying at all, he just sits there and acts as the parties buff-bot)

[Kyoto Kid]

[Aaron]

Allow me to offer a quick precis of the situation as I see it:

If you're a mundane and go up against magic, you generally lose.

If you're a mundane and go up against magic, but have a magician friend with Counterspelling, you're generally on a level playing field again.

If you're a mundane and go up against magic, but have an initiate friend with Counterspelling and Shielding, you generally do a little happydance.

[Big D]

That said, if I pop you with a SMG, I don't risk nigh-certain damage, either.

A good gunbunny can kill you faster than a mage. If they want to kill a bunch of people at once, there's this mundane spell called fragball...

Personally, I think combat spells are kinda weak outside of the "overcast all the way and go home to sleep it off" usage. They're not something you can just keep using in general combat, unless you have a seriously min-maxed character (like a max-cha elf shaman).

Mind control is the biggie. As written, it's pretty unbalancing in combat for either side; you don't need a high-force spell, just high enough to score the hits to land it. A turn or two of mind control is plenty to disrupt the enemy and have the target kill itself.

[Monnock]

The combat spells I don't mind, the exception I have is that powerbolt just seems better than the indirect damage spells. With indirect damage spells you get to use half impact-armor, with powerbolt its just your body, which seems kinda odd, so I was just baffled as to why powerbolt was just better (especially against innanimate objects which just kinda go boom). The secondary effects are just 'flavor,' like if you really want to set something on fire, but otherwise just bypassing their armor and messing them up is all you need to do, so that was my beef with that spell.

For the other ones, as someone else pointed out, the problem I have with mind-probe and mind-control is that there is next to no chance that you can resist it, its kinda like you are making a token roll (in the case of mind-probe it is to see how much information the mage has access to rather than if they succeed or not - the glass is half-empty =P).

In a situation where there is a mage with counterspelling that changes everything, but it just seems unfare to mundains to have to rely upon magic. The reason why I say this is there are all sorts of circumstances where mundain stuff doesn't work against magic (many illusion spells, spirits with immunity to normal weapons, ect.) whereas magic works just fine against technology with the exception of cameras for improved invisibility (assuming they don't meet the threshold) and maybe if you really really want to blow up a car for some reason, even though it says that technology is particularly resistant to magic.

It's dumb how a near-cyberzombie is just as easy to manipulate with a control spell as Joe Smoe, when the reason why he is a near-cyberzombie is because technology has taken over many of his natural processes. If it is just as easy to control them with magic, why not just put a spell on them so they remain aware all the time and removes their essence cap, or just call essence what it is (a cap on cybernetics) and remove the drawback from being resistant to healing.

[Shrike30]

Seriously... take mind control out of the game. I left mind probe in, but YMMV. Mind control, OTOH, is one of those spells that just sucks fun right out of the game for the majority of players. The closest I've got in my game is Influence, and I'm upping the casting time on that so that it's not useful in combat.

If you're finding indirect combat spells too powerful, I'm working on some sort of biofiber armor upgrade which would help some (basically provides extra dice against indirect combat spells, because it makes the target harder to target, as his armor is providing "cover"). Or work out some sort of items that provide protection for your runners. Or just have 'em geek the mage first.

Spirits are a bit of a bitch to deal with, but there are ways. Shotguns loading APDS slugs are a perennial favorite among my group (I think that clocks in somewhere around 7/-7). Autofire weapons are another, if the recoil doesn't get you. Back in SR3 we had one character who dragged around a netgun loading nets soaked in FAB, but that was a houserule. Grenades and missiles work too, although they're expensive. And, again, if you have the chance, geek the mage. The spirits will take off if their contract suddenly ends.

[GrinderTheTroll]

Monnock this is an age-old problem in all versions of SR and a simple and elegant solution exists...











GEEK THE MAGE FIRST!!!

[James McMurray]

If you relegatet he secondary effects of elemental spells to the status of flavor, power bolt is a definite favorite. For just generally killing someone power bolt is a general favorite. However, for hitting poeple you can't see, the indirect spells are necessary (assuming you're witht he group that feels indirect spells create an effect which does not require line of sight to continue).

[Kanada Ten]

I don't see how having to get four successes before you can even net hits (high tech threshold) makes it easy to blow up even an RFID tag. That's a minimum Force 4 Powerbolt with 4 hits, neh? Is an average mage even hitting that? 3 Magic + 3 Spellcasting + 3 Focus: 9 dice pool against a 4 Threshold is something like 50/50, right?

Electrical Damage can get pretty nasty, even affecting drones and such.

But magic is very powerful in SR. If you up drain, then they conjure spirits to cast the spells, if you up resistance then they munch out to overcome. [e] But really, a Johnson isn't going to pay mage fare unless she expects magic resistance - and Counterspelling only requires a Magic 1 to be fully effective, meaning corps can hire really cheap magicians and sit them behind a secure door overwatching the entire complex with fiber optics (Counterspelling for an entire compound!).

And don't forget that visibility modifiers affect Spellcasting, so security forces even taking cover or relying on ultrasound while plunging a facility into darkness can really hurt magic users.

[Monnock]

[Kanada Ten]

Well, let's look at his muched 19 dice pool against the maximum metahuman resistance of 10 Willpower + 9 Counterspelling. That's an even exchange of two maxed characters - not including initiation and shielding, but that would maintain the spiral. If you allow them to double resistance, then defense munch overcomes the offense munch instead of equalling it (and defense doesn't take Drain)...

If they hadn't made Spirits of Man spellcasters then making the Drain equal Force rather than divided by two would be my suggestion. I've toyed with Spell Defense foci for mundanes before, and then the old miniature Nimue's Salamanders, but never really had the game to flesh them out all the way.

[Big D]

I hope this guy remembers to clean up his signature every time he casts.

[Monnock]

Well, I've figured a device that may help with mind control effects, though it is highly subject to interpretation as to how mind-control is resisted.

Essentially it is a network of nano-fillaments that are laced over your brain (though an external version also exist in the form of trodes, however it requires that you shave for it to work properly - and it is vital that it work properly) that monitor brain activity. When a subjects mind is being manipulated by magic, there is a dramatic shift in brain activity, much like a separate personality developing but a little more subtle.
When the network detects this, it administers a light 'shock' that is distributed over the brain in an attempt to 'jump start' the brains natural defense against such intrusions. For each level of the device, when abnormal brain activity is detected it inflicts one box of unresistable stun damage per rating number to the implantee and also reduces the number of net hits scored by that number. Each time the subject recieves the shock, they must resist passing out from it as any electrical damage.

I also was working on some spell-defenses that could be cast upon someone in order to protect them from mind-probe, for example:

Encrypt Thoughts (Manipulation - Mental):
Type: M, Range: T, Duration: S, DV: (F / 2) + 2
This spell creates a psychic ward against attempts to probe the thoughts of the subject. Add Force number of dice to the subject's tests to resist spells that detect thoughts. For the spell to take effect, a number of net hits must be scored equal to the logic score of the target, as more complex minds are more difficult to shroud.
Note: Multiple Encrypt Thoughts do not stack or aid one another.

Mind Bomb (Manipulation - Mental):
Type: M, Range: T, Duration: P, DV: (F / 2) + 3
This spell plants a seed of psychic feedback within the brain of the target. When certain trigger conditions are met (defined at the time of casting), the Mind Bomb 'detonates' dealing Force physical damage to the target (Willpower to reduce damage). For each box of physical damage delt to the subject, they lose one permanent point of logic. This is often a messy means of making sure that vital information doesn't leak out.

Some examples would be: Subject to a mind-probe and being asked about project X, ect.

I also don't know why there isn't a mana version of the armor spell.
Manashield
Type: M, Range: LOS, Duration: S, DV: (F / 2) + 3
This spell creates a glowing field of magical energy around the subject that protects against magic. It provides a bonus to resisting spell effects equal to the hits scored. Like the magic resistance quality, subjects who are effected by this spell are automatically considered 'un-willing' for the proposes of spell targeting.

[James McMurray]

Why do people frequently use MAgic 3 + Spellcasting 3 as an "average" mage? True, that's what an average NPC mage is, but balance issues shouldn't look at what Joe Average does, they should look at what Joe Average PC does. IMX the average starting PC has at least 13 dice: 5 Magic + 6 spellcasting + 2 specialization or mentor spirit. Saying "objects are hard to hurt because normal people have 9 dice" doesn't address the issue of PC balance at all.

That said, the only troubles I've seen with the magic system so far have come from control thoughts. There are certainly others out there, I just haven't hit them yet. Power Ball/Bolting objects isn't normally a large concern because mundane methods of destroying things work about as good or better in most situations, and don't risk causing damage to the acting character.

[Kanada Ten]

The reason I use [Magic 3 + Spell 3 + 3 random dice] is because PC magicians shouldn't be sent up against defenseless targets. Even 13 dice makes 4 hits likely, but not guaranteed, especially with visibility modifications. Defenses have to be balanced against the PCs, but the rules have to be balanced for all levels of mages. Tech objects are already mimicking 4 hits against magic; that makes them harder to hit than natural objects.

If we made everything difficult for munch mages (19+ dice pool) as the default rule, then there's no sense in having rules for Magic under 4.

[James McMurray]

I think 13 dice is a good place to look at for balancing spells. An object rating of 4 against 13 dice is a fairly common but not assured occurrence, even less so if you're needign net hits instead of just a threshold of 1. Hurting objects with magic should be (IMO) difficult but possible. With the current ssytem it is. If the mage maxes himself out for 19+ dice, he'll ave fewer dice elsewhere.

Challenges in a character's specialty should happen, but be less common then challenges in their weak points. That makes the times when their forte is put tot he test much more savory. If every time you cast a spell it's a dificult process, you don't remember the truly momentous occassions when it was slightly more difficult. If spellcasting comes easy for you but you find yourself in a position where it isn't (background count, high ORs, lots of counterspelling, etc.) you'll remember those situations more because you had to sweat for them.

[Monnock]

Thinking more about it, I think the biggest balancing factor for mages is having to see the target. Toss a flashbang into a room, turn off the lights, have chokepoints filled with ultrasonic sensors and MAD that are linked to security personel's AR so they can see without having to be able to see at all, and suddenly having only direct target spells becomes a huge dissadvantage. You can't mind control what you can't see.

Other options include gassing the mage, using tear gas, throwing up smoke gernades with the afformentioned ultrasound room, bum-rushing the mage with a dose of knockout poison or a taser (the knockout poison would be especially useful if they have a low body, and effectivly you are reducing their spellcasting power by giving them stun damage).

If you know there is an intruder that is invisible, set up trip-wires in dark halls and set up an ambush. As soon as the tripwire is sprung, spray down the area. Have high-powerd paint guns used to paint houses available to securtiy personel, throw down gravel or flower - the gravel counteracts the Stealth spell, as the rocks interact with one another and thus create noise, on top of that it gives displacement.

Hit the firealarm so the sprinklers go off, then you can see an outline of invisible intruders (in addition to giving a LOS penalty). Put laser trips behind doors that open inwards, that way any time a door is opened without authorisation an alert is sounded to the security room.

Labcoats are fire-resistant today and only cost about 80$ (less in nuyin I imagine), and if they are defending a lab there would be no reason not to throw one over your armor if the mage is using fire spells. While it doesn't stop the fire damage, it does keep you from catching fire.

In a strait out fight, security personel lose to shadowrunners, and this is generally just how it is. As such, security personel should be trained in stealth and hit-fade tactics just as a rule if they want to be able to defend their target effectivly. Rather than dodge, they should pick up the Infiltration skill and have a good knowledge of ambush locations they could use.

Yeah, I think that improvisation is the key to defending not just against mages but shadowrunners in general.

[Monnock]

Something interesting to consider. These statistics are from the Carsey Institute of the University of New Hampsire
In 2004, the US population was 293,655,404
In 2004, the number of sworn officers in the United States was 675,734
That is 2.3011 officers for every 1,000 people in the United States.
That also means that 0.2% of the entire population of the United States was, on that year, a sworn officer.

According to the FBI, sworn officers "work in an official capacity, they have full arrest powers, they wear a badge (ordinarily), they carry a firearm (ordinarily), and they are paid from governmental funds set aside specifically for payment of sworn law enfercement representatives"

Further...
In Washington state, there was a population of 6,203,788 with 9,825 officers.
That is 1.5837 sworn officers for every 1,000 people in Washington state, or about 0.1% of the total population of Washington.

Now consider these numbers, and consider how about 1% (or less) of the populaton of the world is Awakened. That means that there are a little less than 10x as many Awakened individuals as there are officers. Also consider how this talent is in very high demand. If even a fraction of these Awakened individuals went into law enforcement of some kind, they would have similar numbers to how many sworn officers there are, and think about how often police are thrown out in droves.

[fool]

I thin I should just point out once again, that nowhere in the current edition does it state that 1% of people are awakened. It may have in earlier editions, I believe that the 1% figure comes from sr2 but may have been said in sr3 as well. But it said specifically in sr4 that the number increases each generation. If you look at things like surge and wild magic signifying an increase in mana, it makes sense that the percentage of awakened in the world is increasing also.
For all we know the number could be up to something like 5% by now.

[Monnock]

I forget where I get the 1% number from, I believe I may have read it somewhere or may have just made it up and thought I read it (it happens). Eather way, mages really arn't as rare as I thought they were once I started thinking about it, so it really isn't unreasonable to have a mage or two as part of standard security at a AA or even an A rated company. Also, with so many mages, I still don't see why they get paid so much money, especially with wards costing 100 :nuyen: an hour. I mean, what is up with that?

By 2050, the farthest estimate I have seen in my limited attempt to research it, the population in the US will be up to about 400 million. Even after VITAS struck, that still gives 20 years, which is a huge amount of time, to take that hit into account. So even with 1% of the population being Awakened (which as pointed out, with the rise of magic continuing it is likely higher than that), that is 4 million people who are able to use magic. That is being extremely conservative. That is nearly 6x the number of full-time officers, which means that theoretically mages alone could fill the role of law enforcement. Six times! It's an issue of suppy and demand. The average police chief may make about 100 grand a year, and he does a heck of a lot more than just spend 3-6 hours every few weeks doing his job, and that is the pay for a professional, not just some random average mage.

If people were dumb enough to shell out 500k (wow, nevermind, around 876,000 to a company to do it for the full year... yeah, they can definatly justfity that price with how it cost them no resources what-so ever to set up the ward) per year to a magician to do something as easy as ward a location, then that would probably leave mages at having some rediculously high rate of unemployment as no one would be willing to pay that much money, and those who are employed would be the ones smart enough to settle for a reasonable amount of pay.

[Ophis]

Remember that 1% is all awakened adepts and all, not all mages have the full range of magical skills or can get to max magic (no rule on this but I know plenty of people who will never hit max in a range of attributes no matter how hard they work, so why shouldn't magic be the same). I hope to see a return of "lesser" magic users in Street magic, sorcerers and conjurers etc.

[Monnock]

Even if 1/6 of the 1% are magicians, that is still the same percentage of the total population of the U.S. as the number of officers. Also, the pay set up for wards is messed up, no one would charge by the hour for wards - it would be charged by the Force of the ward, and this is another reason why the supply and demand of mages is messed up.

Everyone can agree that mages with higher magic scores are more rare than mages with lower magic scores, right? So why would you charge the same amount of money for what you have less of (mages with higher magic scores) as you have more of (lower magic score mages)? Why would you charge the same amount to ward a greater area (something you have a limited amount of) as a smaller area?

I can't come up with an appropriate price for wards without an accurate number of mages that are currently employed to security firms (not just total number of mages, as ones that don't work for security firms wouldn't factor into it).

Its messed up. The point I'm trying to make is A) Mages don't start off with triple diget salaries (they likely start off high up there though), and if they do it is probably close to 100k, and B) while mages are rare, so are cops (!) and yet they are portrayed as hundreds of times more common than mages (so far as having a handful of mages per presinct).

[Aaron]

Also, don't forget that the Magic attribute isn't free any more. Your average wage mage is going to have a Magic rating around 3 (which is, I'm told, an average rating). So your one percent of the population is going to be of varied ratings, probably with the distribution leaning toward the low end.