Staging, ...how many successes? Options

[Wonazer]

Ok, according pg 114 SR3, I get to up the damage code for every two successes.

My question is this: Is that taking into account the one success it takes to initially hit? If so it seems a little out of balance.

From the book...
Heavy Pistol - 9M
1 Success - M
2 Successes - S
3 Successes - N/A
4 Successes - D

In essence, it stages on 1-2-4-6, etc.

Too me that seems to early for the first stage up.
I have been running it like this...
Heavy Pistol - 9M
1 Success - M
2 Successes - N/A
3 Successes - S
4 Successes - N/A
5 Successes - D

Staging on 1-3-5-7-9, etc. seems a little more balanced to me.

Like I said in my other thread, am I missing something?

[Slamm-O]

its 2 per damage level, including the 1 to hit, so 2 successes with heavy pistol = 9s, 4 = 9d, 6 =11d (i think thats the way sr3 handles going past deadly, you add to power)

[Wonazer]

[Thanos007]

[Wonazer]

How is it 11D? Nothing in SR3 states that it goes up if you overflow.

It should only be a rating 9 I have to stage against, minus my armor rating. Granted, I have to stage down a bunch of levels.

[Slamm-O]

dont have the books with me, but i seem to remember that that was one of the things that changed with the move to version 3. This is how spells work i know, as far as drain anyway. Cant say i am 100% sure about normal resistance/codes though.

can someone who has the books check it out?

[Wonazer]

Slamm, you are slightly incorrect about Awakened characters. The only note I can find is on pg. 191 SR3 and it notes that Power is raised instead of Damage Code by +2 for Drain Level. Nothing is said about the damage your opponent takes.

[Abstruse]

I'll dig out my books if you want a real page reference tomorrow morning after I get off work, but for a heavy pistol with base damage code of 9M, the progression is as follows:

0 - Miss
1 - 9M
2 - 9S
4 - 9D
6 - 11D
8 - 13D


It's been that way since at least 2nd Edition when they set staging at a permanent 2 for every weapon.

BTW, it's not that imbalancing when you remember that not everyone in the Shadowrun world has Pistols: 6. In fact, Pistols: 6 would be on the level of a competition shooter. Even Lone Star officers only have a base Pistols rating of 4 (modified by their specialization in their specific weapon).

And if it seems like the gunfights are getting out of hand in damage, I'll bet you money it's because they're not going for cover. The FIRST thing you're taught in any combat training you take is that if someone starts shooting at you, before you do anything else, find some sort of cover. A target they can't see is a target they can't kill. The higher the target numbers to hit are, the less chance the attackers are going to be staging their damage up. If the players aren't going for cover, you can teach them the lesson in one encounter by simply having all the NPCs do so. Once they see that light pistol the ganger has is having a better effect than their shotgun, they'll think twice about standing toe-to-toe in a gunfight.

Watch any gunfight in a movie and you'll see. The people are constantly moving around and dodging from cover to cover in order to make sure they can't be seen and that they're constantly moving. Both of these make them harder to hit and, if they do take a hit, it's less likely to be as accurate. In game terms, this means the target numbers to hit go up, and it's more likely that you'll be able to stage damage down, esp. if you're wearing armor.

The Abstruse One

[Wonazer]

Where does over-damage fit into your equation, Abstruse?

The way it works as I understand it is like this...

0 - Miss
1 - 9M
2 - 9S
4 - 9D
6 - 9 - 1 Box over
8 - 9 - 2 boxes over

Actually, because I do the progression slightly differently, it looks like this...

0 - Miss
1 - 9M
3 - 9S
5 - 9D
7 - 9 - 1 Box over
9 - 9 - 2 Boxes over

[Drain Brain]

It doesn't.

If you take a Deadly wound, that's 10 boxes. Nuff said. You can't get more than 10 from a single shot of ANYTHING (with the exception fo the Deadlier Over-Damage rule, which I can't remember off hand and, IIRC, is optional anyway).

If you're at 10 boxes already and someone pops your prone form for another light wound, then that's one box of your body overflow gone, get it?

You can't go from zero damage to body-overflow in one pop. All you can do with your Heavy pistol example is Medium, Serious, Deadly and Deadly AND harder to resist! Which is what makes the whole thing great. If you've got high skill and good target mods, then your massive number of successes will make a deadly wound that's nigh on impossible to resist, unless you're Bernie the Troll Cyber Zombie... :D

[CanvasBack]

I think everybody needs to take a look at page 114 of the BBB.

From my read, staging happens AFTER both the Target and the Shooter make their respective success tests. The other consequences of this are that the shooter can't make the target's body resistance test higher simply by accruing X number of successes and if the shot isn't dodged, 0 net successes for the shooter can still result in base damage. :eek:

[Drain Brain]

If that's the case then my bad - I've not got the book handy and I have a lousy memory...

[Modesitt]

Drain Brain is right on how it works. It stops at D.

For those of you who say you get overflow after staging to Deadly, you are remembering the rules incorrectly. That is listed as an optional rule on pg 126 of SR3.

[CanvasBack]

I think most people are remembering the rules from SR2. After dealing with variable staging in SR1, SR2's rules on the matter were a very good step in the right direction and would explain why they've "stuck". 8)

[Wonazer]

[Drain Brain]

BBB=Big Black Book. SR3, in other words.

I have no books with me (I'm at work) and so cannot back up ANYTHING of what I say. And, as I said, I have a LOUSY memory. I just waffle at memories which may or may not be valid, as inspired by my fellow posters. So there's no need to get antsy about it...

[Wonazer]

DB, I honestly did not know what the BBB was. I did not know you were referring to SR3.

Speaking of pg. 114 - The closest thing listed: "Deadly damage is the highest level of damage possible."

On pg. 125, "If a character takes more Physical damage than there are boxes in the Physical column, the character is in trouble. Overflowing the Physical column means that the character is near death. Instant death occurs only if damage overflows the Physical column by more than the character's Body Rating. Therefore, a character can take 10 points plus their Body Rating in damage before they die."

[BitBasher]

The rule you are all thinking of it related to melee combat, and only works with Melee combat because the way it is staged is different than ranged combat.

Melee combat is staged BEFORE the damage resistance roll, and any for each 2 sucesses over deadly the power of the attack stages up by one.

Ranged combat is staged AFTER the damage resistance roll, so the power of the attack can not be raised by attacking dice.

In melee combat if you lose by 8 sucesses you resist a (weapon power)D wound with a plus 2 to the power.

In Ranged combat (We'll assume Heavy Pistol with standard ammo) you resist a 9m plus however many sucesses were left over after dodging and damage resistance stes, thich is that staged up to determine how much damage you took.

In melee combat, getting 2 sucesses on damage resistance means you took, at aboslutely maximum, a serious wound. All those extra sucesses above deadly did nothing but raise the power that is eventually resisted, and the max that power can be is a D.

In ranged combat is can be MUCH harder to resist damage, because you can get 2 sucesses (or more) and STILL be taking a D, which is impossible by SR3 canon melee rules.

For that matter, the deadlier overdamage rules only work correctly with firearms for this very reason. Using deadlier overdamage with melee makes melee MUCH MUCH harder to resist than is intended in canon.

[edit] this is evidenced by SR3 pg 109-110 Regarding Ranged Combat:
1) Determine Range
2) Apply Situational Target Modifiers
3) Make Attacker's Success Test
4) Resolve Dodge Test
5) Resolve Target's Damage Resistance Test
6) Determine The Outcome
7) Apply Damage (which includes staging the attack)

And by SR3 pg 122 Regarding Melee Combat:
1) Make Attacker's Success Test
2) Make Defender's Success Test
3) Compare Sucesses
4) Determine Damage (Over deadly each 2 sucesses raises power by one)
5) Resist Damage (Each 2 sucesses lowers wound level by one. period.)

In rangerd combat extra sucess have to be overcome in order to stage attack down, while in melee you need 8 sucesses to take no damage, period.[/edit]

[Kagetenshi]

[Drain Brain]

Yeah, I realise that... NP.

Here's the visualisation (I'm ignoring the stun stuff):

Damage Monitor
PHYSICAL [ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ] Damage Overflow : [ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ]

Taking a deadly wound from this starting point would result in this:

Damage Monitor
PHYSICAL [*][*][*][*][*][*][*][*][*][*] Damage Overflow : [ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ]

whereas starting from here:

Damage Monitor
PHYSICAL [*][*][*][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ] Damage Overflow : [ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ]

... and taking a deadly wound would result in this:

Damage Monitor
PHYSICAL [*][*][*][*][*][*][*][*][*][*] Damage Overflow : [*][*][*][ ][ ][ ]

And in 18 turns you could be dead.

You haven't taken more than a Deadly wound in either case. You just can't get to the eleventh (twelfth, thirteenth etc) box from a clear, healthy start by taking only ONE WOUND.


As I recall it. ;)

[Kagetenshi]

[Wonazer]

Well, here is a theory that I have seen posted in this thread. You cannot take over damage from one shot.

I say, why not?? Since when can a single bullet NOT kill someone? Why would I have to shoot twice? If I aim properly and execute a controlled fire attempt, and my aim is true, I should be able to paste the target with one bullet. Efficiency is what it is all about anyway.

[Drain Brain]

[Wonazer]

[Drain Brain]

Dude, we're all insane!