Astral Projection, Can an astral affect the non-astral? Options

[Wonazer]

If I project into the astral plane, can I affact anything non-astral? Can I cast spells on a non-astral creature?

How does this apply to spirits? If there are spirits guarding something in astral space, can they affect something non?

[Kagetenshi]

Nope. What is on one side can't affect the other.
Unless there's an astrally active person in the midst of a crowd of mundanes. In which case, you can target the active person with an area-effect spell, and as long as you can see the others they'll get blasted as well. Mmm, powerballs...

~J

[Sunday_Gamer]

Correct me if I'm wrong Kag, and Lord knows I spend enough time being wrong, but you can't cast a physical spell on an astral target, can you?!?

Meaning if you are as astral, your targets must also be astral. It was my understanding that you could only cast mana spells at astral targets. Meaning you could NOT powerball from astral space, even on an other astral target.

As a general rule, physical cannot affect astral and astral cannot affect physical.
Spirits who wish to attack living creatures must have access to the physical realm, through possession or materialization. Likewise spirits that wish to use their powers on the physical realm must be physical themselves.

Sunday

[Kagetenshi]

I think you can, but if not, just replace powerball with manaball. Makes more sense most of the time anyway, I just personally prefer powerball for the cool factor.

~J

[Drain Brain]

I'm inclined to agree with you SG, but would it not make sense for physical spells to affect dual natured creatures or Astral Perceivers, since they are still "in" their bodies?

[Wonazer]

What's a dual natured creature? Something that can switch between Astral and Normal?

[BitBasher]

Yes a physical spell will affect a dual natured targetl, because they exist in the physical at the time.

[Glyph]

Sunday_Gamer is right. Only mana spells affect astral forms (BBB pg. 78). So an astrally projecting spellcaster would not be able to damage a dual-natured critter by casting powerball at it, since he can only target the astral side of the dual-natured critter.

Also, third edition has completely done away with spells "grounding to the physical plane." So you could manaball an astral target, but it still would not affect the non-astral targets around him.

[Drain Brain]

[Wonazer]

Hmmm.. Would a magic user with perception be considered dual? Or is it the act of going astral that puts you in one side and not the other?

Also, if astral perception is a Free Action, can I and my characters assume that they can just see both at the same time if they have the appropriate ability?

[BitBasher]

yes, a an astrall pervieveing mage is dual natured while he is percieving.

Percieveing astrally is not a free action, it's a simple action, so no.

[Wonazer]

Oh, it's simple? Doh!

Thanks!

Another note: If a mage is dual natured, how long does a perception last?

[BitBasher]

until he decides to stop, but while he is percieving he suffers a plus 2 TN to everything he does in the mundant "normal" world because astrally percieving is very distracting.

[Catsnightmare]

Bit Basher beat me to the punch.

[Wonazer]

Bit, I just looked it up... Pg 171, SR3 states, "To use astral perception, spend a Simple Action to extend your perceptions to the astral plane." A few paragraphs down it states, "It only takes a Free Action to see anything actually present in astral space like spirits, barriers, and other astral forms, and does not require a Perception Test unless an astral being is specifically trying to hide from you."

I am confused... Please help.

[Kagetenshi]

Simple Action to start astrally perceiving, Free Action to actually perceive astral stuff while already Astrally Perceiving.

~J

[Wonazer]

Oh, ok... God, I feel stupid today...

[Catsnightmare]

Don't worry about it, Shadowrun is notorious about having rules scattered the hell all over the book and be worded just vague enough to FWYM.

[Wonazer]

FWYM? Do I want to know?

[Person 404]

F*ck with your mind, presumably.

[Wonazer]

Oh, geez... Now I really feel dumb...

[Sunday_Gamer]

I'll delve a little deeper into that since it's an important point about astral space.

There are 3 modes. Physical, Dual, Projecting.

Physical means you think the astral plane is a funky new jet.
Dual which means you are astrally perceiving and are now dual natured, present in both physical and astral space at the same time. This is noticeable from astral space but your movement is obviously limited by your physical body.
Complete projection means you've left your body and are completely astral, though you may appear as a ghost like form and speak with people, you cannot affect the physical world in any way.

Many critters are naturally dual natured and are therefore constantly astrally present and aware, though since this is natural to them, they do not get +2 TN like mages do (since mages are having funky astral space vision overlays)

When facing dual natured opponents I find the fully astral mage has the advantages, he's faster, he's flying, he can move so much faster than his opponent and he can log mana spells at them which for many dual natured creatures is usually highly bad. =)

Now back to regular programming, I'm done babbling about astral space.

Sunday

PS: One of the greatest advantages of the Masking discipline is the ability to be astrally perceiving while not "lighting" up in astral space, meaning you are dual but look Physical instead, veeeeeery handy.

[Polaris]

Guys,

Sunday Gamer is quite right. Just to add a bit too it, I have found that unless you are a mage yourself (and many times even then) being dual natured sucks. In fact, in most cases against serious opposition, it is a death sentence.

Why? Again as Sunday Gamer said, Astrally Projecting Mages own you. They are faster, more mobile, and can pull tricks that make them pretty much invunerable to you. [One of my favorites against ghouls is to cast a mana spell and phase into a wall. Since the Ghoul is dual natured, they can't hurt me, so I phase out of the wall on my next pass, fire off the spell, and phase back in.

*nasty*

-Polaris

[Fortune]

It's also important to remember that all spells cast while Astrally Projecting cause Physical Drain as opposed to Stun, no matter what the spell's Force.

[Polaris]

Fortune,

That is absolutely correct. That said, most manabolts in my experience are fetish-drained force 6 spells which means they have a drain code of 2. That means that you are safe enough casting these even in Astral Space even with physical drain.

-Polaris