If I project into the astral plane, can I affact anything non-astral? Can I cast spells on a non-astral creature?

How does this apply to spirits? If there are spirits guarding something in astral space, can they affect something non?

Nope. What is on one side can't affect the other.
Unless there's an astrally active person in the midst of a crowd of mundanes. In which case, you can target the active person with an area-effect spell, and as long as you can see the others they'll get blasted as well. Mmm, powerballs...

~J

Correct me if I'm wrong Kag, and Lord knows I spend enough time being wrong, but you can't cast a physical spell on an astral target, can you?!?

Meaning if you are as astral, your targets must also be astral. It was my understanding that you could only cast mana spells at astral targets. Meaning you could NOT powerball from astral space, even on an other astral target.

As a general rule, physical cannot affect astral and astral cannot affect physical.
Spirits who wish to attack living creatures must have access to the physical realm, through possession or materialization. Likewise spirits that wish to use their powers on the physical realm must be physical themselves.

Sunday

I think you can, but if not, just replace powerball with manaball. Makes more sense most of the time anyway, I just personally prefer powerball for the cool factor.

~J

I'm inclined to agree with you SG, but would it not make sense for physical spells to affect dual natured creatures or Astral Perceivers, since they are still "in" their bodies?

What's a dual natured creature? Something that can switch between Astral and Normal?

Yes a physical spell will affect a dual natured targetl, because they exist in the physical at the time.

Sunday_Gamer is right. Only mana spells affect astral forms (BBB pg. 78). So an astrally projecting spellcaster would not be able to damage a dual-natured critter by casting powerball at it, since he can only target the astral side of the dual-natured critter.

Also, third edition has completely done away with spells "grounding to the physical plane." So you could manaball an astral target, but it still would not affect the non-astral targets around him.

Hmmm.. Would a magic user with perception be considered dual? Or is it the act of going astral that puts you in one side and not the other?

Also, if astral perception is a Free Action, can I and my characters assume that they can just see both at the same time if they have the appropriate ability?

yes, a an astrall pervieveing mage is dual natured while he is percieving.

Percieveing astrally is not a free action, it's a simple action, so no.

Oh, it's simple? Doh!

Thanks!

Another note: If a mage is dual natured, how long does a perception last?

until he decides to stop, but while he is percieving he suffers a plus 2 TN to everything he does in the mundant "normal" world because astrally percieving is very distracting.

Bit Basher beat me to the punch.

Bit, I just looked it up... Pg 171, SR3 states, "To use astral perception, spend a Simple Action to extend your perceptions to the astral plane." A few paragraphs down it states, "It only takes a Free Action to see anything actually present in astral space like spirits, barriers, and other astral forms, and does not require a Perception Test unless an astral being is specifically trying to hide from you."

I am confused... Please help.

Simple Action to start astrally perceiving, Free Action to actually perceive astral stuff while already Astrally Perceiving.

~J

Oh, ok... God, I feel stupid today...

Don't worry about it, Shadowrun is notorious about having rules scattered the hell all over the book and be worded just vague enough to FWYM.

FWYM? Do I want to know?

F*ck with your mind, presumably.

Oh, geez... Now I really feel dumb...

I'll delve a little deeper into that since it's an important point about astral space.

There are 3 modes. Physical, Dual, Projecting.

Physical means you think the astral plane is a funky new jet.
Dual which means you are astrally perceiving and are now dual natured, present in both physical and astral space at the same time. This is noticeable from astral space but your movement is obviously limited by your physical body.
Complete projection means you've left your body and are completely astral, though you may appear as a ghost like form and speak with people, you cannot affect the physical world in any way.

Many critters are naturally dual natured and are therefore constantly astrally present and aware, though since this is natural to them, they do not get +2 TN like mages do (since mages are having funky astral space vision overlays)

When facing dual natured opponents I find the fully astral mage has the advantages, he's faster, he's flying, he can move so much faster than his opponent and he can log mana spells at them which for many dual natured creatures is usually highly bad. =)

Now back to regular programming, I'm done babbling about astral space.

Sunday

PS: One of the greatest advantages of the Masking discipline is the ability to be astrally perceiving while not "lighting" up in astral space, meaning you are dual but look Physical instead, veeeeeery handy.

Guys,

Sunday Gamer is quite right. Just to add a bit too it, I have found that unless you are a mage yourself (and many times even then) being dual natured sucks. In fact, in most cases against serious opposition, it is a death sentence.

Why? Again as Sunday Gamer said, Astrally Projecting Mages own you. They are faster, more mobile, and can pull tricks that make them pretty much invunerable to you. [One of my favorites against ghouls is to cast a mana spell and phase into a wall. Since the Ghoul is dual natured, they can't hurt me, so I phase out of the wall on my next pass, fire off the spell, and phase back in.

*nasty*

-Polaris

It's also important to remember that all spells cast while Astrally Projecting cause Physical Drain as opposed to Stun, no matter what the spell's Force.

Fortune,

That is absolutely correct. That said, most manabolts in my experience are fetish-drained force 6 spells which means they have a drain code of 2. That means that you are safe enough casting these even in Astral Space even with physical drain.

-Polaris

Raiko,

Yes, you do take fetishes with you in astral.

Fortune,

Yes, there is always some risk, agreed. That said, it is generally (IMX anyway) a risk worth taking. It also doesn't change the fact that dual-natured creatures are totally screwed by astrally projecting mages.

-Polaris

How do you figure you take fetishes with you? thay are NOT bound to you, you did not pay karma to bind them to your aura. If you own a weapon focus that you have not bound but is sitting on your belt it sure would not go with you.

I would like a page reference and quote to support this please.

Bitbasher,

Read page 173 on the SR Main Book under "Astral Attributes" (it is the top left corner of the page in my edition).

"Your astral form looks like an image of your physical body. The astral forms of your foci and fetishes (emphasis mine) go with you in astral space."

Thus it is pretty cut-and-dried that you do keep your fetishes in astral space when projecting.

-Polaris

Aaaah well, that what happens in my game when noone has ever used a fetish.

Fetishes have their up sides and their down sides. The down side is that if you lose your gear (escaping a prison, climbing down your fire escape in your pajamas to escape Lone Star, etc.), you are hosed (which is why it is always a good idea to have a non-fetish spell or two).

The up side is that you can either lower the cost to learn a spell, or, more effectively, lower the effective Drain by one. This rocks for a combat mage. First, if you have <1 point of cyber (dropping Magic to 5), you can still cast Force: 6 spells without taking physical Drain (especially useful if the GM doesn't let you initiate at char-gen). Secondly, reducing a spell's effective Force from 6 to 5 drops the Drain power by 1 (a Force: 6 Manabolt goes from 3 (Dmg Lvl) Drain to 2 (Dmg Lvl) Drain. Also, from a roleplaying perspective, fetishes add a lot of flavor to your character.


The dual nature of ghouls is one of the reasons that I think 10 points is too much to pay for them. If being an albino is "free", then being a ghoul should be, as well. The disadvantages far outweigh the advantages, and being dual-natured is the worst. Some people actually think they are min-maxing when they make a ghoul adept. They think "Hey, plusses to my physical stats, and astral perception for free!" But not being able to turn it off makes you any astrally projecting mage's personal joyboy. Plus, a clever mage could astrally percieve and cast mana spells onto the astral side - he could use area-effect mana spells on ghouls in a swirling melee with his buds, and only hit the ghouls.

Does anyone enforce the "ready item" simple action to use a fetish? after all you need to whoop it out to use it. This is the main reason that fetish required spells aren't used ever. Too much chance of not having one out, or the right one out, or having it at all when you need it. It kinda wrecks versatility.

There's some confusion over fetishes and their respective speed.

One would think that in order to use it one who need to be holding it, but arguments can be made for wearing them.

Under foci they mention how it always takes a simple action to activate the focus, however under the description of the expendable fetishes,they mention how popular they are and how that popularity probably stems from the fact they require no extra time to use. Mind you, that's for expendable fetishes. Not sure how it applies to everything else, they weren't very clear.

Sunday

Guys,

As far as I know there is no action required to use fetishes. In fact I know this to be true because you can have a fetish linked exclusive spell if you so desire.

Personally, if I were to run another game in the near future, I would disallow fetishes because they are simply too good. The only drawback is the one Glyph mentioned.....if you are captured/naked, then you can't use the spell.

OTOH, if you are captured, then you have a lot more to worry about than being unable to have your fetishes believe me. Since you only have to wear fetishes to use them, that means any other conceivable scenario that denies you fetishes would have to be contrived in the extreme. Basically fetishes are like a spell book in DnD. It is supposed to be a disadvantage but it really isn't and every player knows it.

-Polaris

Polaris, my players would disagree. If they weren't disadvantages to them my players wouldn't avoid them like the plague. And they do. Because there are disadvantages to them.

Bitbasher,

Such as? I not trying to be obnoxious, but I can not think of any serious disadvantage to fetish linking most spells.

Fetishes are cheap. You can use them when wearing them (using them is free). They give great benefits (either reducing the karma or force of the spell by one....which is awesome), and you can have them pretty much all the time (including projecting astrally).

I would gently suggest that your players are missing a trick.

Mind you there are some disadvantages on paper, but they are really "non existant" disadvatages. For example, they can be taken away, but that in almsot all cases is a non-issue. The spells are also easier to detect when casting, but again, an awakened person will almost always perceive it anyway while a mundane almost never will....fetishes notwithstanding.

-Polaris

Well come now, of course there is a disadvantage to using the fetishes! They become material components for your spells!!

So tell me, which would you rather. Having spells that require material components and are slightly more powerful, or, having slightly less powerful spells but you don't need a damn thing to cast them?

I would go with the whole "don't need a damn thing", why? Because requiring material compoents is still a disadvantage.

Sunday

The main reason that I mentioned the "no spellcasting if you lose them" disadvantage is that a lot of GMs, at least on this board, seem to be fond of the "contrived scenarios" that Polaris mentions - things like "You don't have any gear and you're in the middle of the jungle" or "You don't have any gear and you're in the middle of the Barrens." You know who you are.

The other disadvantage is that you have to buy them, and spend time attuning a new one if you lose the old one. However, the cost is piddling even for a Resources: E mage. Note, though, that even though they have a low Availability and can usually be gotten in 24 hours or less, they are still not as simple to get as just buying beer at the maxi-mart.

According to the rules, a fetish has to be touching the spellcaster's body to work (BBB, pg. 180). So they don't take any actions to use if they are rings, necklaces, etc. - you only have to take an action to use it if you, say, have it in your pocket instead of wearing it. Which doesn't make much tactical sense.

Despite their having little or no real disadvantages, I actually tend to be like Sunday Gamer when I play spellcasters - I will sacrifice power for that sense of self-sufficiency.


Zazen, I won't restart that old debate again. I will just note that it probably is a good idea to talk with your GM before the game, to be sure that you are on the same page that he is. If you can only affect one side, then you can do tricks like the one I mentioned. But if you can affect both sides, you have more potential targets that you can hit - plus, as someone else mentioned, you can always project if you want to hit astral targets only.

Plus with fetishes, consider this scenario: Wagemage sees nasty shadowrunner throwing kickass fetish-required manabolts and blasting the guards that he's trying to protect. Wagemage readies trusty Magic Fingers/Levitate Item spell and takes away the shiny shadowrunner toy... aw... drek... lol. *gamemaster grins evilly *

*nod*

That's generally how I do it. I wear my foci and fetishes either as jewlry that I wear under a layer of clothing. [I have a focus-belt but even then I wear my coat and shirt over that belt so it can not be seen.] Otherwise I wear my fetishes as pins that are pinned to the *inside* of my shirt and/or longcoat.

In short, your focus and fetish have to touch you to work. There is no rule that says they must be visible. If they aren't visible, then they can not be affected by spells (no LOS) at least in the physical plane. [Astral is a different issue since LOS changes in astral.] However, since Magic Fingers can not be cast in Astral Space (being a physical spell), this is a moot point.

-Polaris

I happen to use fetishes *cough* ok, not really.
I have a little plastic monkey that squeeks when you squeeze him and often insists on using it when I cast certain spells.
Mostly because it's silly and because some day, some idiot is gonna take my monkey away and think I can't cast spells anymore. =)

Sunday

I don't use fetishes my self, but I found one way to get around the not having the fetishes on you matter. I do believe teeth compartments take no essence away, so why not have the teeth compartments be fetishs. I have used this with sustaining foci before and since it is completely with in the rules, I have seen no rules on foci having to be a certain size per force rating. So if you are worried about not having your fetishs with you all the time, just have some teeth pulled and fetishes in the shape of teeth put in there place.

Heh, that tooth (etc) compartment idea is great. Never thought of it.

When I make a magician charachter I typically take a mix of fetish, non fetish, and exclusive spells. I miss the expendable fetishes from sr2 though.

They have expendable fetishes in SR3.
I assume you refer to them being different? If so, refresh my memory, how were they different?

I carry quite a few on me usually, yet somehow, I never use the little buggers.

Sunday