 Look at the bow, what do you mean you do 13P? |
  |
 May 27 2006, 12:59 AM
Post
#1
|
|
|
Target  Group: Members Posts: 6 Joined: 24-April 06 From: Albany NY Member No.: 8,499  |
So, yea... i was making a meatwall troll. Think huntsman meets city ganger... yea, the more i say it the stupider it sounds.
But the concept is not the problem. The problem is the bow. troll has 9 strength, with lvl 2 muscle replacement. So, 11 strength. and that makes a bow, designed for someone with that strength, do 13P damage. This seems silly to me. I brought it up to the GM, and he thinks its a little odd too. So i brought it up to the group, and they think its stupid. Is there a hard or soft cap for it, and we just haven't found it? has this been talked to death (havent found anything in here yet) because an availibility 2 weapon should not do more than a fuggin assault cannon. Or maybe it should? help would be appreciated. -dender |
 |
 
|
|
May 27 2006, 01:04 AM
Post
#2
|
|
|
Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
You can make it a lot higher than that! Man, in SR3 you could blow apart cars with a trollbow.
There's nothing wrong with 13P, since you have to carry a fraggin' bow around! IIRC, the bow is single shot, so the damage is comparable to full auto weapons with ex-explosive ammo. Plus, it's like the monowhip, the cops are going to know this guy. "Hey Bob, there's another arrow stuck in the plascrete divider over here." Check it out: 17P |
|
|
|
|
May 27 2006, 01:09 AM
Post
#3
|
|
|
Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
Also, by my reading, you can only have a rating 6 maximum bow at character creation. So after that you are at the whim of your fixer (the GM) to get something better than that. Unless you and the GM play RAW only limits on getting hold of equipment.
That is roughly the same damage neighborhood as a rifle, but without the weapon range or the ability to up the damage or penatration with special ammo. Well there are the injector arrows, but that's a little different. |
|
|
|
|
May 27 2006, 01:21 AM
Post
#4
|
|||
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 4 Joined: 18-May 06 Member No.: 8,570 |
The book says the bow has a straight availability of 2, not that it scales by rating. At least by my reading. EDIT: Someone pointed out that there is a max rating of 6 on new items asides from availability. That counts. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
May 27 2006, 02:18 AM
Post
#5
|
|
|
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,116 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,449 |
I don't think the rating: 6 cap applies to things like Strength min for a bow - by that logic, no one could start out with an armored jacket, either, because its ballistic "rating" is 8. The rating cap applies to things that have a variable rating (and usually a cost based directly on that rating), such as muscle toner, medkits, etc.
Look at the bounty hunter archetype, for example. If you apply the rating cap to bows, he is not a legal starting character with his rating: 10 bow. |
|
|
|
|
May 27 2006, 03:15 AM
Post
#6
|
|||
|
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
1) so you're saying you think the sample characters are actually made using the rules properly? woah... you must not've looked too close. not that this rules out the bow being legal, it just doesn't mean it *is* legal either. 2) the bow does have variable strength scores to it. ranging from 1 to who knows what. thus, by your definition, it does fall under the rating rule =P that being said, with availability 2, a crazy superbow of doom isn't all that hard to find in the shadows anyways... likely as soon as the first run ends, you will be able to start looking and find it with ease. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
May 27 2006, 03:51 AM
Post
#7
|
|||
|
Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...We had a Troll Adept in our old SR3 group down a chopper with a Ranger X & Dikote arrows. I think his base damage started at something like 18S before staging up. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
May 27 2006, 04:37 AM
Post
#8
|
|
|
Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Minimum strength is not a rating. It is a minimum strength. If it were a rating it would be called a rating.
|
|
|
|
|
May 27 2006, 05:37 AM
Post
#9
|
|
|
Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,148 Joined: 27-February 06 From: UCAS Member No.: 8,314 |
I'm going to play with some math, which may or may not be relevant to the question at hand.
I once fired a recurve bow with a 75-pound draw. It was cool; I felt like I was shooting lightning bolts, and there was hardly an arc at 30 yards. According to a couple sources, a 75-pound bow fires a 1.5-ounce arrow about 200 feet per second (this figure is conservative, most sources have it higher, some as high as 285 fps). I could draw the bow, but it was probably at the edge of my range for shooting comfortably. My long pull at the time was about 150 pounds, and let's say that I had a Strength of 3 -- I worked out regularly, but not religiously. My military press was about 130. The best weight I could find for a clean and press is 396, about three times more than me. So let's say 396 is the strongest man in the world, say Strength 7. So four attribute points is worth three times what I can pull (if the attributes are linear) or an increase of threefold (if attributes are exponential). Let's be conservative and go with a linear model. Then the strongest human can pull a bow with a release velocity around 600 fps, and the Strength 11 troll can release something in the neighborhood of 1200 fps. Ignoring the fact that a stronger bow can fire a heavier arrow, let's say the 1.5-oz arrow is being fired at 1200 fps. That would be a kinetic energy around 5689 J. An M-16 fires a 0.14-oz bullet at about 2800 fps, for a kinetic energy around 2891 J. So, yeah, I'd say a 13P troll bow is feasible. Find fault if you like; as I said, I just tossed some numbers around, but I tried to remain conservative. |
|
|
|
|
May 27 2006, 05:45 AM
Post
#10
|
|
|
Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,148 Joined: 27-February 06 From: UCAS Member No.: 8,314 |
Oh, and don't forget that we are talking about (vastly) super-human archery, here.
|
|
|
|
|
May 27 2006, 06:00 AM
Post
#11
|
|
|
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
The cost for a bow is listed as "Rating x 100." If the strength minimum is not a rating, then bows don't have a rating, making them free. The text for the bow says "bows have a minimum strength rating," which backs this up further.
Of course, at only strength x 100 and availability 2 you could buy a really mean one off the average starting cash from a middle lifestyle. If it's rating 2 or higher it'll take 2 days. If you have a fake SIN you can get one almost instantly at your local sporting goods store. |
|
|
|
|
May 27 2006, 06:56 AM
Post
#12
|
|
|
Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
I'm picturing a few orks with stingers roosting in camo sniper nests, a knot of troll archers, and a couple of shaman dripping spirits as back-up. The runners know the general location, deep in Cascade Crow territory. Fortifications built into the mountain and utilizing an abandoned mine to hide a weapons' depot...
|
|
|
|
|
May 27 2006, 10:42 AM
Post
#13
|
|||
|
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
First, since doubling the velocity requires 4 times the energy (and thus force and work) to span, you're actually using exponential growth there. Second, bows don't work like that: velocity increases start dropping off fast beyond 300fps, and "world's fastest bows" clock around 350fps with very light arrows. I seem to remember someone mentioning a unique bow that managed 400fps with particular arrows, but that's already freaky. Beyond that, just increasing the draw weight will not achieve much. It may well be that achieving velocities over some 500-600fps is more or less impossible with bows as we know them, regardless of the draw weight, even with the lightest arrows. It would be much easier to retain a velocity in the 300-350fps range and just increase the weight of the arrow to somewhere in the 2000-4000 grains range. This would make for 400-1100 foot-pounds of kinetic energy. The standard M16A2 load (M855) creates 1260 at the muzzle (62 grains at 3025fps). That's not even touching the problem of diminishing returns from increased arrow weight and velocity. As long as you can fully penetrate the opponent, what determines the size of the wound is the configuration and width of the blades of the arrowhead -- with a 1"-wide 4-bladed head, it makes no difference if the arrow is moving at 250fps or 350fps or weighs 350 or 600 grains when it hits a human. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
May 27 2006, 01:38 PM
Post
#14
|
|
|
Chicago Survivor Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 5,079 Joined: 28-January 04 From: Canton, GA Member No.: 6,033 |
you forget the part where it goes thrugh the human and dents the panzer behind it.
Maybe a better mechanic is to have it be 2+Str/2 but have the AP get better with a higher str. like -(str/3) |
|
|
|
|
May 27 2006, 01:42 PM
Post
#15
|
|||
|
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Umm, no. Not unless it's got a steel shaft and weighs ten times as much as the higher end of the scale I mentioned, ie. about 6 pounds. And it won't, since this isn't Discworld. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
May 27 2006, 04:08 PM
Post
#16
|
|
|
Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
What kind of dynamics would be needed to make the arrowhead tumble inside the target body?
|
|
|
|
|
May 27 2006, 04:15 PM
Post
#17
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 360 Joined: 18-March 02 From: Plymouth UK. Member No.: 2,408 |
Well there'd be no point barbing it.
It'll pust its own way through! |
|
|
|
|
May 27 2006, 04:41 PM
Post
#18
|
|||||
|
Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
First off you'd need the tip to detach from the shaft somehow. The problem there is that the shaft is where a lot of your mass, and therefore kinetic energy, is stored. Maybe if you got the tip to swivel but have the shaft still attached and pushing it. Or had shifted more weight from the shaft to the tip (not sure what this would do to flight dynamics though). And you'll be fighting the relatively small cross-section to add that extra weight in.
I think that is Nikoli's point, that the upper end's ability to penatrate armor is crazy. Although I really don't think that having AP scale like he suggests is a great idea because it'll top out at AP -5, which is just crazy too. The idea of something like ((Min STR)/2 + 3)P with a maximum of maybe 7P seems more in order, which leads to just landing single net hit success (basically a peripheral damaging shot) as quite damaging with the target soaking from 8 boxes. So you are dealing with something like a man-portable ballista. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
May 27 2006, 04:50 PM
Post
#19
|
|
|
Chicago Survivor Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 5,079 Joined: 28-January 04 From: Canton, GA Member No.: 6,033 |
Maybe design one shot head and shaft combination so that shortly after it penetrates the target, the sharft begins to split in a star model, should puncture prety much every important organ instead of just what's in front of it.
|
|
|
|
|
May 27 2006, 04:55 PM
Post
#20
|
|||
|
Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
The cross section of a hunting tip is already quite substantial, and those blades are damn sharp. So you are thinking of a linear scoring or something on the shaft so the leading end splits and pokes outward and as it moves foward in he body? That's still is just puncturing, not the cavetation that [tumbling] slug will do with is so damaging because it is an area effect. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
May 27 2006, 05:14 PM
Post
#21
|
|
|
Chicago Survivor Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 5,079 Joined: 28-January 04 From: Canton, GA Member No.: 6,033 |
But a half dozen shaft sections puching out into the body is going to do some damage and be a royal pain to remove.
And yes, I was thinking along the lines of a linear scoring, somehow transferring the kenetic energy back into the shaft one around 5 inches of depth have occured. |
|
|
|
|
May 27 2006, 06:04 PM
Post
#22
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 909 Joined: 26-August 05 From: Louisville, KY (Well, Memphis, IN technically but you won't know where that is.) Member No.: 7,626 |
I can't get the search tool to find it but months ago I did the math on the range of a troll's bow (with sources) and it turned out to be horrific. The two factors that contributed most were a) the incredibly long pull length that a troll can provide (bow = spring and increased pull increases total energy) and b) the increased mass of an arrow that has to measures around 60" long (trolls being taller and have disproportionate arm length). The increased mass improves range (inertia resists drag) and ratchets up the KE for the velocity. One could also posit that a trollbow could get away with a head twice as large as normal, increasing the bleed-out from the larger cuts. Using existing (~year 2000) bow materials, the velocity was around 110m/s (360fps) and the KE was about 726N (534ft-lbs) or what you'd get from a .357 or .44 magnum depending on barrel length. Only the cross-section and drag areas are so much larger for an arrow that 100% of the KE will be delivered by the bow while the bullets will waste a lot with blow-through. Furthermore, the cross-section of the arrow is significantly larger than either round (combining shaft + broadhead) increasing the odds of damaging a vital organ or a major blood vessel. The cross-section of the broadhead's cutting surfaces is much smaller than a bullet (~1mm square at point of impact vs. .357 ~63mm) so the arrow will shatter/slice body armor like butter. It's like using those gunpowder-powered nail guns; a .22 blank will put a nail into concrete no problem. This is like firing a finish nail with a .357; you can probably embed the arrowhead into an I-beam (though the rest of the arrow will probably shatter when it stops in less than a half-inch). I don't feel like pulling out my steel manuals and checking that out, though. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
May 27 2006, 07:12 PM
Post
#23
|
|||||||||||||||
|
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Why would you want to? At the velocities we're talking about, cutting a wound with a wide broadhead is clearly a more effective way of killing a human.
I'm pretty sure neither would provide any benefit for terminal effect and would cause serious problems with both penetration of rigid objects and flight.
And my point is that it shouldn't be. Any halfway realistic example of a "troll bow" I've seen would be worse for armor penetration than full-powered rifles. If you're capping the damage at 7P, I don't think there's any reason to give it any armor penetration benefit whatsoever. When the weapon really is a siege weapon carried by a troll I could understand a damage code as high as a HMG firing FMJ, but penetration would be probably be worse. Re: disintegrating shafts, these would probably lead to tumbling arrowheads (which, again, are not a good thing, since you're depending on the cutting edges to cause damage) and very shallow penetration by the shaft fragments (barely breaking through the skin).
The permanent cavitation of even a high-velocity rifle bullet may be quite small -- much smaller in diameter than what you can get with a good broadhead. Deforming and fragmenting high-velocity bullets are a whole different matter, of course, capable of causing a wound cavity over 4" in diameter and still very deep from the average sporting rifle. For example, non-deforming vs. deforming/fragmenting from the same rifle -- note that the former tumbles while the latter doesn't. That kind of effect requires a velocity well above 1000fps, preferably closer to 3000fps.
That's Joules, Newtons are the SI unit of force. Going that low with a .44 Magnum would require a really fricken short barrel. :)
Err, no. Suggested reading. Also, a massively heavy arrow, even with a very large broadhead, will in fact spend very little kinetic energy in penetrating the human body, since work is only done at the cutting edge. A large broadhead attached to a 300 grain arrow at 200fps will penetrate clear through a human torso and retain some velocity afterwards -- a 3000 grain arrow at 300fps will make a wound that is only larger if the arrowhead is larger, and will retain most of its kinetic energy after penetration. Or does "blow-through" refer to something other than the classic "over-penetration"?
If you want to make a point about penetrating armor well, you don't want to compare it to a .357. Any common .357 magnum load will be readily defeated by all common forms of flexible body armor right now. Not that I doubt that a "troll bow" could defeat most current flexible body armors -- but if you're trying to justify an insane damage code like 13P, the arrow needs to be better than a 7.62x51mm AP tungsten carbide AP round, and in fact even better than a .50 BMG SLAP round (which, AFAIK, is rated somewhere around 8P/-6 in SR4). So, how does this 4000 grain arrow launched at 350fps manage against 34mm of rolled homogenous steel armor at 500 meters? Or even 12mm of rolled homogenous steel armor at 200 meters? |
||||||||||||||
|
|
|
||||||||||||||
|
May 27 2006, 07:23 PM
Post
#24
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 291 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 806 |
Whenever there's a harpoon gun featured in a future product, I'm going to take the damage from that weapon and cap all bows with that number:
"Sorry a metal tipped stick doesn't do more damage than this at subsonic velocity." |
|
|
|
|
May 27 2006, 08:47 PM
Post
#25
|
|||||
|
Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
That was my intent. Thanks for making it explicit. The only projectile weapon listed in the book with a non-zero AP is the Heavy Crossbow with 7P AP -1 (which I'm not sure why is there, it really doesn't need to be). That's a big part of the reasoning I have for capping bows at 7P. It really is silly to think of arrows in terms of armor penetration. At least until you make them into something like rigid, solid metal rods (and try accelerating that sucker to high velocity). When an arrow hits something the shaft tends to flex and shake, which actually unchecked can cause problems with penetrating just "soft" targets like big game. A normal arrow at super-sonic velocity, besides having issueds with the flighting, would likely collapse or shatter before penetrating hard armor.
Broadheads (fixed or mechanicals) aren't really about cavities per say, they are about cutting a thin plane through. Which is the core of why tumbling is really conterproductive. They do their damage in a different way. That's what mechanicals are about. They stay folded in and there is a little lever that when they start going through pulls a forward facing blade out of the tip which then pivots out really wide cutting a serious path. Sort of like you just shot a big ass knife into the target. That area of the cut is what you are looking for, to make sure you cut through as much blood vessle and organ as possible. When talking about tumbling I had more in my mind the NATO 5.56x45mm fracturing as it tumbles. Also the temporary cavity area is much bigger, but then damage in that region can vary from lots to very little depending what is out there. But yeah, thanks for bringing that into perspective. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
|
Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 21st September 2024 - 12:48 AM |
Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.