 Look at the bow, what do you mean you do 13P? |
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  May 31 2006, 12:40 AM
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#51
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Target  Group: Members Posts: 31 Joined: 22-April 06 Member No.: 8,493  |
Considering that AK-98s sell on the street for 500 nuyen, I doubt there's serious legislation or enforcement efforts in place to try and limit troll archer assassins.
HAHAHAHAHA not in my game the GM has desided to put in the street codes from 2 and 3 ed so that 500 new yen gun is like 2500 to 3000 or so depending if ONE is avalable I asked to buy 3 barret 121 guns for 3 drones of mine it would cost 75000 for 3 or 19000 for one so I can put it in a 2k drone??? :eek: |
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May 31 2006, 12:54 AM
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#52
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
Your game isn't RAW. To have any basis for discussion things are discussed from a RAW standpoint. By the RAW, ak-98s are 500¥ on the street.
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May 31 2006, 02:15 AM
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#53
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Release aids are for pansys. You don't need no skin on your firngers. It just gets in the way. Hard callous and exposed bone are what you want. |
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Jun 10 2006, 03:55 PM
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#54
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Target Group: Members Posts: 67 Joined: 30-May 06 Member No.: 8,621 |
What about the lasersighting? or will this be a smartlinked bow >.< no. just... no... Oh and dissonance, good job on insulting your way to victory. Best way to win an arguement. Is it any different then to ask what kind of market there would be for reflex enhancers, pain editors, EX-explosive rounds or any grenade? Aquisition is not the question, trying to integrate the physical possibility of an old solution to a futuristic world and then applying abstract rules is the issue. And to everyone else who has been posting info on this, thank you. You've given me alot to think about, and alot of great help. I particularly like the info on contruction and size of draw/arrows I honestly think its a little silly for a bow to do that much damage, until i realised that it would effectively be firing a javelin or harpoon. Its still a little much damage wise though and i'm content with the current maximum damage rating of 8P (rating 6 for a bow str min.) my GM has imposed. It was for a character who lives in a wireless-free zone, a smart troll acting as the stupid backwards bountyhunter, and with all you've all said to help, i think it will go smoothly. and now my own 2 :nuyen: on the matter at hand: what about a bonus to armor of its rating against anything with structure? or even just give anything with a structure double armor. Takes the "exploding lonestar helicopters" out of the equation. and past rating 6 it becomes an exponenital increase in cost, or to simplify things, 250 :nuyen: *rating, and past rating 12 it becomes 500 :nuyen: *level. There are several cases of this in the book, of rating dependant pricing multipliers. maybe give it -1 AP at rating 7 and up, and then -2 AP at rating 13 and up, with a corresponding decrease in damage? so a min. str rating 13 bow would do 13P with -2AP and cost 6500 :nuyen: . Perhaps even making the availibility be rating up to 6, 1.5*rating to 12 and 2*rating above 12. This way that same rating 13 bow would be rating 26 to find. Still legal, but it would take a very very long time to find one. Make arrows be availibility of the bow's rating to find. so for this particular example, rating 13 to locate new arrows. Double that and R for the injector arrows, with a minimum of 8R availibility. And if thats not enough, maybe make rating 7 and up R and rating 13 and up F. it should be noted that we're now on our 3rd run, and I (the meatwall for the party) haven't even had to draw a weapon yet. there hasn't been a single fight (not counting shocking a sleeping man into unconciousness). The smart runner avoids ever being seen. Shadows are alot harder to hide in when they are lit up with gunfire. talk is cheap. Bullets are not. My word are particularly cheap, which is why you get such a long post for 2 :nuyen: one more question, does an arrow automatically break if it strikes a living target, or is that just a convention from *cough* some other game? having only fired bows at target boards, i don't know the answer to that one either. |
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Jun 10 2006, 04:12 PM
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#55
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
Dender, your cost escallation suggestions are good and all, but what if the character takes the armorer skill and wants to make his own bow?
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Jun 10 2006, 04:16 PM
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#56
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 244 Joined: 8-June 06 Member No.: 8,681 |
I don't see any reason for the arrows to break, no. Especially since you're almost certainly talking about shafts made from some SOTA material. I'd assume that some arrows are damaged (but repairable)...in modern terms, something along the lines of aluminium shafts that get bent and need to be straightened. You could come up with some detailed houserules for that (penalties for re-using arrows that you haven't repaired yet, yadda yadda) but that would seem to be contrary to the SR4 'streamlined rules' approach. Just handwave it. |
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Jun 10 2006, 04:28 PM
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#57
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 244 Joined: 8-June 06 Member No.: 8,681 |
The main weak point is that...well, it doesn't really make any sense. Making a stronger bow isn't really any harder than making a weak one. You just make it all bigger, thicker, and heavier. What's hard in bowmaking is making the bow /efficient/. Given X pounds of draw, how much of that energy is transferred to the arrow (as opposed to being wasted in moving the string, the arms of the bow, making noise, etc etc etc). If you really wanted to model that, you could give a bow a DV of StrMin + (Maker's skill/3, round down). Or skill/2, if you wanted to be generous. I'm taking no position on whether a bow doing 13P is realistic. At least, yet :) I'm just saying that the maker's skill isn't the limiting factor on the strength of the bow. |
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Jun 10 2006, 10:52 PM
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#58
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,150 Joined: 19-December 05 From: Rhein-Ruhr Megaplex Member No.: 8,081 |
Hm, using this reasoning, why not make a more efficient sword - just make it bigger, thicker, and heavier.
This solution isn't probably the ultimate wisdom, but I thought it has its merits. After all, even today only a few people craft really powerfull bows. |
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Jun 10 2006, 11:01 PM
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#59
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
That's because there's no point. |
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Jun 10 2006, 11:09 PM
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#60
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
You mean like say, dagger vs. claymore? |
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Jun 10 2006, 11:11 PM
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#61
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 515 Joined: 19-January 04 Member No.: 5,992 |
Holy Threadnomancy, Batman!
I wasn't being insulting, Dender. At least, not intentionally. I'd personally disagree with you. There _is_ a market for reflex enhancers and various bits of cyberware. They are proven bits of awesome tech that help out Joe Mundane on the battlefield. Furthermore, nearly everybody can benefit from the cyberware, the auto-shotguns, the assault rifles, and the awesome cars. The only people who can benefit from a trollbow is a troll. I personally figure that bows eventually have a cutoff point. A bow that does double-digit damage isn't really a bow anymore. It's more of a ballista. Like the converted one that Detritus uses in the Discworld novels. I just have trouble believing that these trollbows exist, because the market is just so damned specialized for them. The target audience is, like, troll bowhunters. I am loath to believe that people in third world countries could make a bow that wouldn't just splinter under a troll's full draw strength. And, again, there's style over substance. My view isn't RAW. I'm just being a Devil's Advocate, and not doing a very good job of it, either. |
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Jun 10 2006, 11:14 PM
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#62
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
James McMurray: Neither is more "efficient" overall. That sort of bladed weapons are a bad analogy, though, because when you go from humans to trolls, making a cut-and-thrust sword bigger, thicker, and heavier actually works, creating a weapon that a troll can use as easily as a human can a 2½lb sword, but fucking up people far worse when it hits. Just making a bow bigger does not really achieve anything in and of itself, since the velocity or the weight of the arrow matter fuck-all beyond a certain (very low) point when hunting humans.
You don't need to be a genius to manufacture a siege crossbow capable of hurling massive bolts. Coming up with any use for such a stupid weapon is a lot more difficult. |
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Jun 10 2006, 11:22 PM
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#63
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
I wasn't trying to say the analogy was appropriate, only that it's flawed, because bigger blades actually are better at dealing bigger wounds.
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Jun 10 2006, 11:27 PM
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#64
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Understood. Should have divided that paragraph.
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Jun 10 2006, 11:30 PM
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#65
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,150 Joined: 19-December 05 From: Rhein-Ruhr Megaplex Member No.: 8,081 |
To defend McMurray, that was my bad analogy ;). Probably to much soccer today. When I wrote it, it sounded like a good analogy :D. The point I was trying to make, is that just by making the bow heavier, it will not be more efficient. Regarding the siege crossbow: I can only bring the lame reasoning that crossbows aren't bows ;). |
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Jun 10 2006, 11:46 PM
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#66
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
In that case, remove the stock and the mount and give it to a troll, then it's a "regular" bow, albeit pointless and extremely difficult to use.
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Jun 11 2006, 07:04 AM
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#67
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
True, but that doesn't mean it's any more difficult to make a more powerful bow. The physics of making a bow are pretty straightforward, and given the right materials, anyone with skill can make a bow of pretty much any draw-weight they want. Unless we're talking custom-troll builds, I don't see *why* anyone would want such an insane thing, but it's certainly possible. |
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Jun 11 2006, 04:45 PM
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#68
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 244 Joined: 8-June 06 Member No.: 8,681 |
Right. This is the point I was trying to make. Making a bow of arbitrary draw-weight is reasonably trivial, given modest skill and access to the necessary materials. That is NOT the same thing as efficiency. Making the spring as strong as you like is easy. Designing the bow such that it efficiently transfers as much of that energy as possible into the projectile is more difficult. (As a point of interest, though relating to crossbows rather than bows, modern crossbows are upwards of four times as efficient as medieval ones - a modern 150-pound crossbow fires the same projectile at the same speed as a medieval 700-pounder. I can dig up references for that if anyone cares; I mostly mention it just because I think it's interesting :) ) And, of course there's AE's point that increasing the velocity of the same arrow perhaps shouldn't increase its damage without bound - there may be a point of diminishing returns. I'm undecided on that one. |
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Jun 11 2006, 05:24 PM
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#69
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
One can assume that bows require arrows that are suited to their draw weight, as in real life. Strength 17 troll bow is equivilant to a ballista then the arrow it fires should put a nice hole in a castle wall.
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Jun 11 2006, 05:55 PM
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#70
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 105 Joined: 28-August 05 Member No.: 7,637 |
Why are people so quick to houserule and deny things?
There is nothing what so ever with a troll bow that does 17p damage. The rules are clear cut and straight forward. You don't want this troll killing all of your npc's? Kill him. He obviosuly has some extreme points locked up in strength. Shoot him in his head with a sniper rifle. Have a mage mana bolt his face. Many many tools are there for GM's, just use them. Why is a 17P single shot bow so ridiculous when you can do the same thing with a machine gun and a arm gyromount? |
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Jun 11 2006, 08:27 PM
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#71
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Well, not really. It may put a nice hole in wooden battlements, but it'll hardly even scratch sturdy stone structures.
When you're shooting humans with hunting broadheads, diminishing returns set in at around 200fps. Beyond 250fps, with any velocity that any bow we can dream of can achieve, the wound caused will be the same, unless you also increase the size of the arrowhead. A 1" diameter arrowhead makes a 1" diameter wound through a human, regardless of whether it's attached to a 450gr arrow that's moving 250fps or a 1000gr arrow that's moving at 450fps. Unless the arrowhead is changed, once you have achieve full penetration through a human body, velocity no longer increases the size of the wound at all. If you increase the size of the broadhead to a ridiculous degree, then you can make use of a ridiculously oversized (and overpowered) bow. This way, with a siege-weapon type bow, you could theoretically create wounds in humans that could challenge powerful rifles -- like the .338 Lapuas or whatever the Sniper Rifles in SR are supposed to represent. Such a bow would still penetrate rigid armor far worse than any serious rifle with armor piercing ammunition, though. Hence why damage codes up to around 7P are, IMO, justifiable for bows. |
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Jun 12 2006, 09:39 AM
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#72
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,590 Joined: 11-September 04 Member No.: 6,650 |
RIGID armor
I would remind people that the rigid armor in the game does little to stop a sword swung by joe average against joe average joe1 attacks and joe2 parries Tied, attacker still wins ties I think so damage is str3/2 =1+2 = 3 lined coat adds 4 soak dies giving 7 dice to soak 1 damage gets through and remember kevlar armors, even rigid kevlar (not spectra weave) would be next to useless against broadheads or we can ust admit it is abstract and accept that trolls with superpowers (either through cyber or magic) can use bows so big and nasty that they decapitate oh and as to the market thing there are more trolls than magicals, and very few magicals would ever want a weapon focus so they shoudl be baned beta and deltaware for those not human, or Tir Na nOg Elves, should be banned (only high end corp citizens of the cyberwear corps would ever get it designed for them) Metamagics should be banned (initiates are rarer than TrollBowhunters) Cultured bioware is way out, (have to grow it using the clients DNA, too uneconomical) |
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Jun 12 2006, 12:01 PM
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#73
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
No. Hard kevlar, like in ballistic helmets, would work wonders against broadheads. Cutting that shit is really damn hard. Some forms of (by SR4, 70-year-old) flexible ballistic armor would be less useful against arrows than they would against handgun rounds, but that's only a meaningful comparison if you're looking at a bow that does the same damage as a handgun. Other forms of flexible armor would work at least as well against broadheads as handgun rounds -- check up on stab-resistant body armor.
They bloody better be able to decapitate humans if you hit someone in the neck. So can everything from 5.56x45mm on up, and that's, what, 5P? |
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Jun 12 2006, 01:45 PM
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#74
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,002 Joined: 22-April 06 From: Canada Member No.: 8,494 |
Key things to point out about bows is that they are SS (which already limits them in the game mechanics), their strength is hard set (which means you need to be strong enough to use it), and they are easy to break (oh a glitch, ping there goes my string, got to get a new one now).
I think if you need extra rules to moderate troll bows I would suggest the following: 1. Increase the availability of a bow past STRmin 6 to be 10 + (STRmin - 6) (eg a STRmin 16 bow would have an availability of 10 + (16-6) = 20). This is due to the highly specialized nature of the bow. 2. Increase the cost of the bow past STRmin 6 to be :nuyen: Rating x 200. Again due to the highly specialized nature of the bow. 3. Any death from this bow would show tell tail signs that the death occured with a troll bow and due to the highly specialized nature of the bow you can increase the number of dice that LS uses to find the character using the bow (+ (Rating -6) dice would be my suggestion) |
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Jun 12 2006, 03:07 PM
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#75
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
I would imagine that a max-strength troll bow is taller than the tallest troll, has a draw weight most easily measurable in fractions of a ton, and fires solid steel arrows about the size of an adult human arm.
Concealibility should be adjusted accordingly. Although, trolls aren't what makes it insane. What untill arsenal comes out and you can make bows for mechanical arms mounted on tanks. They'd probably be better than a navel-scale railgun. |
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