To all GMs ... please help me out ..., when to kill a character? Options Track this topic Email this topic Print this topic Download this topic Subscribe to this forum Display Modes Switch to: Outline Standard Switch to: Linear+

[dandy]

to make a long story short:

a player in my group is playing his character insanely stupid ... meaning he is risking his characters life every single time. trying to make impossible godlike actions. while some of his move are extremely cool (i applaud him for his in-game creativity), i am having a very hard time to calm him down. it's at the point that almost everybody in the group is already laughing when he is trying to explain what he wants to do next.

now, don't get me wrong. this group of mine started out with almost no roleplaying experience and i am very happy that they somewhat ROLEplay their characters.

the problem is that whenever something stupid happens to this particular character he freaks and starts yelling at the GM (me) why he suffers damage and so on.

i have tried to explain to him that jumping off a plane with no parachute is deadly. this player expect me (as the gm) to make sure that his character stays alive.

my question: how can i make him learn the lesson, that a TN of 18+ can kill him and that if he acts inspite the fact that his move is incredible stupid it can get his character killed and that i, as the GM, will kill his character if neccessary....



sorry for the long post ... i am really desperate here. ...

[L.D]

Kill the chracter. Next time something like that happens, just kill him.

Or, talk to the player. Get him to cool down or kick him out of the group.

Sorry, but I have absolutely no patience with players like that. You DO NOT accept that a player yells at you for taking damage. That's below low. You're the GM!

Remember the two rules of PRG:s

1) The GM is always right.
2) Should the GM be wrong, see rule #1.

[Solidcobra]

Just kill the stupid thing! rip his character sheet to pieces and tell him to go back to the character creation again.

Honestly, whiners like that are meant to play indians vs. cowboys, not shadowrun.

Explain to him that he is acting as if he was a 2 year old, use the example of the 2 year old who cries when he loses a Janken contest.... I think he'll get the idea.

[shadd4d]

Explain to him that if you were playing Deadlands, he'd be on his 4th character.

Seriously, explain to him that it is not the GM's responsibility to make sure your character lives through everything. Show him the episode of the Simpsons where Grimes grabs the electrical cables. That's stupid and he died. Explain that major stupidity usually = death. Why does roadkill happen?

Another option could be letting them read some of the fiction, esp. from Sprawl Survival guide. Convince him that boneheadedness won't conquer all. The section from the Companion is especially useful, as well as Corporate Download. If you've got it, try Neo-Anarchist's Guide to Real Life or Corporate Security. That put's hairs on the character's chest.

Try positive re-enforcement: karma works well but so does just candy. Don't make your players your pavlovian dogs, but show them that stupidity works less than 10% of the time. Cheers about getting some people into role-playing.

Don

[Sphynx]

When he complains that it's your job to keep him alive, tell him it's his job to try and stay alive. If death wasn't a part of the game, it wouldn't be in the rules.

Sphynx

[dandy]

yeah, i have thought about that. actually i was thinking something more like the EvilGM ™: make the other characters kill his character... ;-)



but seriously, we are all very close friends and have known us for several years. we do a lot of stuff together (not only shadowrun) and somehow this person is acting so strange while playing shadowrun. normaly he is very different.

he has played this character for maybe two years now. somehow i think, that this person identifies with his chacracter more than anybody else i know.

for me a character is just a piece of fucking paper. if i loose it, i face the challenge and make me another one.

but this guy ... uhuh ...


his character died once. he quit playing. he said he didn't want to play a game where the sole purpose was to do crime. two years later he joined our group again, because another gm resurrected his char ... ;-(

[Austere Emancipa...]

I have a player who always whines. I simply make sure he understands L.D's rule and, when necessary, I make it obvious that I'd be right and he'd be wrong even if I wasn't the GM.

If he wants to be stupid and never get hurt, tell him to go play some computer game and turn on God Mode.

[tjn]

Okay, I'm going to go against the kill the character trend, especially if you don't talk to the player before hand. Killing the character without talking to the player is quite likely going to cause a rift in your friendship and might split the group if you don't handle it with a delicate touch. However the attitude "The GM is always right" will do nothing but cause an escalation of tension in an already bad situation. GM's that resort to that rule should be slapped with a fish.

I can't give specific help, due to not knowing the specifics of the situation.

However it sounds as if he's a new player, and his outbursts sound simular to someone that views the game not so much as a storytelling tool, but in a us vs the gm kind of view. If he hasn't figured out there is no winning in roleplaying, he might need a little more education.

It could just be that the particular player just wants a completely over the top action adventure complete with Wire Fu. If this is the case, you may want to talk to him, see what he desires out of the game. Do the same with the other players, as I assume from your post they're a bit fed up with it as well. And come to him with the line:

"we're all here to have fun and enjoy ourselves, and I want you to enjoy yourself, just the stunts your doing in game is distracting from the rest of the group's enjoyment of the game. How can we come to a compromise so that we can all take as much enjoyment away from the game as we can?'

And it's remarkably easy to survive in DL. Rifles + Headshots. Most things are weak to headshots, and if said evil thingy didn't go down, RUN LIKE HELL.

EDIT: Seeing new post...

First thing, enless you have a deal going with the other GM, why on earth did you let the character back in?

He's way too tied up in this character. Perhaps ask him how he views the end of his character's story goes? Does he get the girl and retire off to some Carribean Island? Die in some poingant way like saving the team? Go out in a blaze of glory hip deep in spent shell casings? Find some form of salvation and "reform"? Sell out to the man? No one runs forever.

Perhaps shifting games so that he can't just play his old character? See if the group wants a breather for a while and explore something new? If someone doesn't show up for an evening run a one shot ganger story, or something else to get him to invest in a new character.

More information, the better we can help.

[toturi]

[Mimick]

Yeah, there are more players than GMs. Oft times the players don't know what a pain in the ass they can be, either. You just gotta make them see things from your perspective - you can't treat everyone with kid gloves all the time.

Take a break from your game. Make your friend GM a few games, let him see what it entails. I can almost guarantee a slight attitude shift.

[edit]There's always the old "Well, your actions have pretty much ruined the game I had planned. While I could probably make something up to keep you guys going for the night, I'd rather go home and watch TV. See you guys next week."[/edit]

[dandy]

you guys are great.

ok, this is what i am going to do:

1. talk to ALL my players before we start the session about what they want from the game and what would make the game more fun for them.

2. i'll state that shadowrun is NOT reality NOR a game where you can win. it's purpose is to have fun with your friends.

3. people die. period. if they don't like it, they should consider playing another game or play with another group and GM.

4. make them UNDERSTAND that stupid actions (like in real life) may result in death and that i WILL NOT use "GODS HAND" on any player which death is a result of a stupid "i am the greatest shadowrunner which can throw impossible high target numbers".

5. deadly runs will be awarded with higher karma. stupid actions won't (even if they work out fine).

6. i am the GM. the time i have to spend to make a run enjoyable for everybody in the group should be considered as valuable as the time the players put into fleshing out their characters. i don't enjoy my npc's getting killed for no reason. especially if they are my johnson's and a carefully planned out plot which goes down the drain because someone wants to jump of a plane and headshot the cow from outer space while doing some some godlike stunt in the air.

7. sign here, either with a pen or with your brain ...



capicé?

[toturi]

[Paul]

I play to my players. I engage them with conversation, and see what they want from the game, what excites them, what intrests them,a nd then I find a way to give it to them that doesn't suck the big one.

I have had players pull all sorts of odd and maddening stunts over the years-everything from trying to "Stealthing" (His word not mine) out of a room full of people staring directly at the character to attempting to sodomize and kill the other player characters. (Thankfully never other players.)

Sometimes what this guy needs, because in my experience there is always one, is a game tailored towards him. An off the wall idea I started playing with way back in the summer of 1990 was what I call Omnidome.

I take a map. I have them roll initiative. Lowest player places a mark wher ehe isont he map. Next lowest,and so forth. then they "kill" each other. Its a great way to relieve stress, get them thinking about the rules, encourage freindly competition and best of all only the winner walks away with a point of karma. Just one point. no money, nothing. It works wonders. It takes little time, and its highly customizable.(We add traps, opposition, etc...as warranted.)


Communication is the key, and honesty is the rule.

[Mimick]

[toturi]

[Dalassa]

[Smiley]

[Mardegun]

Dandy

Sounds like you have the right idea, talking to them is the most important thing. Anything else is a waste of time. HOWEVER let me make one more suggestion that will help you and your players, particularly this troubling one player...

Tell them the points you listed. Emphasis that dieing is a part of the game, just like movies, books and other entertainment like this. Here is the fun part

1) Plan a run, a run where the characters get caught. Trapped them in a room that gets gased or they get hit by a stun ball ... something reasonable. Don't make a big deal about it, don't even say "You have been kidnapped!" Play if off like it is just part of the game.

Note: Any magically active character must roll for magic loss when at a deadly wound, stun or physically.

2) When they awake up, they are somewhere they have never been before. Perhaps they are in prison, but for some unknown reason they have all of their equipment they had before. Now they need to escape. Obviously you need to plan the different ways they could escape. You also should decided if they are in a group or in single cells ... better if they are in different cells, but still can talk.

3) Give them some time and if they don't escape, have some guards come by and take one of the characters. If the guards succeeds they take him/her to a torture room. Maybe there are built in screens in each of the cells, so the characters get to watch the other player being tortured. Note the torturer don't ask questions. Do this to each character ... eventually one of them has to escape

Important Note!: Before the run, like days before the run ask the magically active characters what magic skills, abilities, equipment and spells they have registered? Make note of these, because it is VERY important. Also keep in mind that unless a magically active character is sinless, they will be recorded as magically active.

Note: The magically active characters can only use magic skills, abilities and spells they told you in the above note. Don't explain why, just describe it that when they try to use those other powers nothing happens, they are being blocked some how.

4) Make the escape difficult and those who have been tortured are still injured, so they are the easiest targets. AGAIN do not go after the players, just play it straight and let them make the bad decisions and/or rolls.

Note: When anyone dies, pull them asides and tell them # 6)

5) Make several escape routes, but they all end in a 'tunnel with a bright white light at the end'. I know it is corny, but it doesn't have to uber cool all the time.

6) Then describe to all the characters this ... they are in a lowly light room strapped to chairs. They all are jacked in. If they don't have a datajack, they now have one.

note: For magically active characters they can accept a geas to get back their magic point. They character now awake and can easily unstrapped them themselves.

The door to the room is unlocked, there is a obvious camera in the room recording them. When the characters leave the room they find that they are in a building out in the country or even the barrens ... all that matters is that it is a dissolute place, which gives the impression of a waste land (Not the actually waste land, but make it feel like that)

Note: All of their equipment was tossed in a closet in a pile, but everything is still there!
Note2: If a character dies before they reach the white tunnel and you KNOW they can't keep a secret, don't bring them to point 6 yet. Wait until they all wake up ... I know it is hard, but you have to calm the player down and tell them 'TRUST ME'

Now within the week, let the player stumble across a really popular simchip of a Shadowrun group. Obviously the chip is of their group, but the characters have been alter enough so that people won't recognize them.

There you go! You have just introduced the players to loss without actually killing the characters. Explain to the players the clues.

A) They were captured!
B) The magically active characters were only able to do magic that was REGISTERED
C) They had their equipment ... that really doesn't make any sense
D) Tell them the company that makes the chip are a black market company called .. The White Tunnel and they specialize in these kinds of chips.

Now at this point you just created a villain and let the characters try to get their revenge. Heck maybe even have the villain try to capture them again, since their chip was soo popular. Maybe make it so that the only way they are going to get info (assuming they can't) is by being capture the third. Who knows it is up to you, how you want to write the story.

So what do you think? There are a lot of holes for you to fill in, but you get the idea. They run was really a test run to get the players used to the idea that their characters can die and there are reactions to every action.

ps: If anyone uses this idea, please post and let us know how it went! :)

[TinkerGnome]

[Mardegun]

For f#$@ sake, I write all of that and all you have to say is

<insert geek voice> excuse, but on page 123 it clearly states that ...</insert geek voice>

If you want to state how you view the rules fine, but at least have something to say about what I wrote ... christ

[lspahn72]

[Dashifen]

[Austere Emancipa...]

[lspahn72]

[Moon-Hawk]

The one thing that still worries me is that you said he's really attached to this one character. That happens sometimes, especially in long-running campaigns and with first characters. If you kill this character, he might decide he doesn't want to play anymore and leave for two more years, and purile or not we don't want this. I would suggest you tell him about your concerns with this character, tell him that you feel like the game has gotten away from good SR, and you intend to increase the lethality a bit, and stunts like his won't work as well as they have in the past. Offer him the chance to retire his character and start with a new one. Preferably the whole group will do this together. Sometimes it's good to get a fresh start. Maybe the old characters become NPC's that are training the new PCs or something, if you want to keep some continuity. I'm wandering from my point. My point is, if he's REALLY that attached to this particular character, maybe he needs a fresh start if you're going to be changing your tolerance for the way this character behaves. This whole character's personality is based around doing wacky stunts, and apparently those were appropriate in your game, since he's still alive. Whether you like it or not, you allowed such tactics to work, so they're an integral part of this character. If you want to change the game, I think you should give him the option of using a new character, one better suited to the new game. He's not going to want to change the personality of this character, since he's so attached to it.
Whatever you decide to do, I hope things work out allright.