[X] My Assistant

[Rooks]

And these type of runners are what Johnsons dream of, set them against a enemy and if they get caught at the enemy's facility, the enemy goes down in flames along with the characters

[Teulisch]

the first thing to do, always, is to sit down with your players and explain what you see as the problem. Theres a pretty good chance that your viewpoint has not occured to them yet.

past that.... try giving them a run that focuses on catching a villan who made the same mistakes they did. let them see how easy it is to track someone when they need to track them to get paid.

the big problem sounds like the players dont understand the new matrix and commlink rules. most players wont think about it unless their playing a hacker.

[booklord]

If the runners disobeyed the Johnson and killed the guards on the first run, then they're marked men. Black Listed. No Johnson will touch them. The Johnson from that job may very well want them dead.

If they murder a woman they kidnapped in front of dozens of witnesses then they are marked by local law inforcement. Since she was a hacker, they probably got the lady's matrix contracts doing their very best to make sure the entire matrix is their enemy.

They're dead meat. They just don't know it yet. You could spend the next several adventures with them running from those who wish to make their lives a living hell but is that begins to become just as much punishment for you as it is for he players. ( and aren't we in this to have fun? )

I'd sit down and explain this to the players. Tell them that at the current point their characters do not have much of a chance of survival. So you've got two choices. Either kill them off and start again or redefine the game to meet the team's needs. If the team is suited for wetwork then there are jobs for messy folks like that. Corporate contracts where the corps seek to inflict object lessons on remote facilities. Gangs that over step their bounds and need to be eliminated down to the last ganger. A terrorist facility that needs to be taken out, and the survivors tortured for information. Not all jobs are of the stealth, friendly variety. Sometimes the Johnson wants things bloody and messy. It seems that your runners are the type those Johnsons would like to hire. If that's the type of campaign the runners want to run ( and your interested as well ) then have some Johnson come in and recognize the runners potential and offer them some jobs more suited to their particular temperment. In addition the new Johnson can help the players relocate, get new SINs, escape their current problems, and put the sorry story of the runners' brief exploits in more "civilized" running behind them.

[cx2]

I seem to recall the core rulebook suggested having a session discussing with the players what sort of game they're looking for in these situations.

[hyzmarca]

Send the Shadowriders after them.

[Oracle]

@ryanstone: Am I right when assuming the name of the murdered female hacker was "Zipper"? :D

[Witness]

Give them gel rounds to use in their guns?

[Crusher Bob]

Sigh

What should you do?

Have fun.

Why are the players acting the way they are? Are they really buying into the game setting? Do they have a different idea of what the setting should be like than you? Do they not want to deal with all those consequenses and just want to play a game of MBAW with a slightly different setting?

In game actions, like every one else seems to be suggesting almost never solve this type of gaming problem.

To use an analogy, you have a hole in the bottom of your boat, you ask for advice on how to fix the hole, but what you are getting are different schemes to bail water out of the boat. All this does is make you do more work. The bottom line is you either need to fix the hole, or get a new boat.

[NightHaunter]

Talk to them, about what they've done wrong, why it's wrong and what they should be doing.

Explain the concept of consequences to them.

Them chase them down using a combination of the above idea's, I can't think of anything else to add.

Them depending on their actions there they will either die of live out their lives as different people.

[booklord]

[Paul]

Ever watch Heat? That DeNiro and Pacino movie? Great example of how the small things can turn into hefty consequences for a player character. Just like today if someone starts thrill killing, the authorities will eventually gear up for the take down. Forensic evidence will lead to their location, and they'll be taken alive if at all possible, and then incarcerated. Then it's don't drop the soap time.

[the_dunner]

Other comments have been good, but I wanted to re-stress a point:

It's abundantly clear that the GM and the players both have different ideas of what'd make a Shadowrun session enjoyable.

If that difference is really causing you to have a nightmare, then this probably isn't a good group for you to be running with.

The first step is to sit down and talk about how everyone views the game world. It's possible they may WANT to see repercussions. It's also possible that they like the way things have gone and want to continue to play a game with tons of violence and no consequences.

The game is escapism, after all. The bottom line is that if everyone's enjoying it, then it's being played right.

However, if you're not having fun running things the way that they want to play, then something needs to be reconciled. The solution to this isn't "punishment." The solution is most likely that either you or your players need to change their approach to the game. If those approaches can't be reconciled, then it's probably time to find a different group or game.

[Chiaroscuro23]

I've gotta agree with the others on the second page here: this is an OOC issue, and you can't solve OOC issues with IC responses.

Chances are that your players either 1) don't know the hacking rules and haven't thought of the possible consequences of their actions, or 2) don't wish to play in a style of game that limits their ability to murder others regularly and publically.

The solution to either issue is to talk to your players about it. If they don't understand the rules or consequences, tell them what they are. If they don't wish to play a game which requires them to lay low rather than going in all guns blazing, then either run that type of game or tell them you'll only run your game your way, they can run their own games differently.

The solution is not to "teach them a lesson" by thinking of horrible ways for in-game consequences to come crashing down on the characters because the players didn't know how the game world worked.

-C.

[ryanstone]

Very rational responses guys. Thanks.
I was dismayed and more than a little pi$$ed (in the american way, not the english way) when I first created this post and I honestly had punishment on my mind.
You've all provided me not only with ideas as to how I should handle the situation, but you've also made me look at the situation rationally.
I am going to talk to the players. The murder in question was perpetrated by a player who knows the Shadowrun "universe well." He's a colector of books and litterally owns 90% of the SR books from 1e up until 4e. He has read Neuromancer several times and has even ready the most recent SR novels. suffice to say, he knows the setting. I think the murder boils down to him snapping. He got pissed when she stonewalled him after he made two random references to the sale of the disk. The character is a mage, and everyone thought that he was going to stun her after she gave up the information, instead, he gave her a massivly overpowered Powerbolt. At any rate, my point is that I think this is an isolated incident. I am going to take all of your advice and talk to this player and see if this is the direction he wants to take his character. If so, the I'll have to adjust the game accordingly. The other players were not only surprised, but some were outright pissed when he did this. One player even did a great job of role-playing his characters revulsion to the point where he left the party and went on his own for a bit so he could think.
Anyways, here are some ideas I have for handling this situation:
1) If the players attempt to catch a cab from the location they are currently at, the cab will go on lock down and emit a warning saying that criminals are inside and that Lonestar has been notified. This will force the characters to break out the windows and escape on foot. Minor inconvenience, but it will let them know the heat is on.
2) Life in the Matrix or in ARO will be difficult. Bombarded with SPAM, messages that call the characters Murderers, and stuff like that.
3) Lonestar does not have the evidence to arrest them, however, they are going to hastle the crap out of them. They will pull the players over when they are on the way to a run and loaded with equipment. They will burst into meets with Johnsonsand scare off the Johnson and then interrogate the players.
4) Possile use of the Shadowriders with the possibility of joining them if thats the way they want the game to do.

And that's about it. The players will be hit in the pocket book because they were careless. I will have Fixers, or other contacts explain to them why they were sloppy and point out to them the nuances of the wireless world.

Lots of people have told me to get new players, but that not really something I want to do. These are my close friends. We've been gaming together for years and hang out weekly when we aren't gaming.

Does the above seem fair?

[shadowbod]

Something that I don't think has been mentioned is the idea of rewarding the characters when they do something good/interesting/non-murderous, rather than punishing them for the 'bad' stuff... e.g. give them more karma/some cool gear/a new contact etc, so that the others players can see what happens when you do it right.

[Kesh]

ryanstone, sounds like you've got the best solution to the situation right there.

[Wounded Ronin]

I think this should have been posted in the general SR forum rather than the SR4 forum because it is dealing with general gaming issues rather than something which is very specific to the SR4 ruleset. More people would see it in the general forum.


Personally, I'd run the party through at least one SWAT team ambush which they may or may not survive if they committed murder in this very flagrant and visible way. If they survive they can, like, hide their identities, lie low for a while, and continue with life.

[DireRadiant]

[ryanstone]

Dire, that is an awesome idea!
It's ideas like that that I really need and appreciate because my grasp on the intricacies of the SR universe are less than firm to say the least.
I think I'll have a new fixer contact them with a job, and some comlinks. The comlinks will have the comcodes compramised and the runs he is offering up are shadey to say the least. Since this is the only guy offering up jobs, they have little choice but to take them and attempt to clean up their image in an attempt to get some reputable work lined up.

[Demon_Bob]

Sometime down the road a Hacker group can contact them with a little Job.

The payment would be an erasure of various incriminating pieces of evidence.
certian files would be shifted into cold storage. ect. They again become nobodies.

If that is the way the players would like the game to go then, perhaps...

A Johnson approches them for a job. He has a little problem with foriegn relations.
(Peace has broken out that that is bad for buisness.) He sends the runners after some information and equipment in another country. Even offers to smuggle them into the country and outfit them with equipment once they get there. While this stuff does exist, it is not possessed by the foriegn diplomats he claims have it. It is possesed by the military or some important firm in that country. The equipment used to belong to the Special Forces of the military that used to be at war with the country that they are in.

Having a rep as a Pschopathic bunch of killers means that people will more likely shoot first, then ask questions.

[GB1]

if you try everything suggested and they still don't change, make them roleplay being in jail.

"Active Skill:
Makeshift weapon (shank) - 1 (2)"
Here i come!

j/k lol

[Gauvain]

I was playing in a game with a bunch of poster children for ritalin like this. Next game I pulled out a racist Tir noble slashermonkey with combat monster and impulsive balanced by daredevil. They hated being the ones to do the thinking and to restrain the spasm.


Generally I like my schit to run like "The Italian Job"...but if you want to run "Bad 80's cinema" far be it from me to stop you............

[ryanstone]

We are supposed to be finishing up the run this weekend so I'll let you guys know how things turn out.
For any of you that have run or are familiar with On the Run, how do you think their employer would react to the men he hired being plaster all over the Trid as muderers?
They now have the good he was after. When they call to set up a meet would he even want to risk being caught? They were just supposed to track down some info and buy or steal it so Lonestar probably won't hastle the guy too much.
However, he now knows these guys are off the deep end and loose cannons and certainly wouldn't want to show up in person. Maybe send a lackey to do the meet or something.
What do you all think?

[ornot]

I'd have thought Johnson would be somewhat leary of meeting them, maybe waiting for the heat to die down. Meanwhile other interested parties could track down the players, although they'd probably be less inclined to talk than they would if the players had pursued a less bloodthirsty route.

I do own and have read On The Run, although I've not run it. It occurs to me, based on your description, that it might be worth beefing up any potential opponents appropriately. Drones are always good ^^

[Demon_Bob]

The Big Troll Johnson with several big troll bodyguards?

Runners are hired for Plausible Deniability.
Officially Mr. Johnson has never meet the Runners,
and does not know who they are.

Did they do anything that in anyway can be connected back to the Johnson?

In not he might just give them a stern lecture on making unwanted enemies.

The drop might be a little more complex as it is now more difficult not to be associated with the Runners.