Hello all,
So I'm about at my wits end with my game and with Shadowrun in general. I could really use some advice on how to handle a situation that arose during my game with weekend.

First, the situation: The party kidnapped a hacker from a bar. In front of a dozen other hackers who ran rampant in the players completely open Comlinks. They then proceeded to murder the woman they kidnaped after she spilled the beans. They then left an NPC to deal with the van and body while they all grabbed grid cabs using their SINs and comlinks to go to another location. They got into another gun fight at the second location and this is where we ended the game.
Here is a big part of my quandry: This is not their first time being wanted for murder.
On their first mission they were supposed to destroy a facility with explosives. However, the Johnson made it clear that the guards did not have to be killed and he would be happier if they weren't. Of course the playes go in with guns blazing and kill all but one of the guards who was sniping them. The security cameras were never disabled and the hacker was brought down so they were not able to erase the camera data. Thus, the run and the slaughter of the guards was on the news as were the character faces. Since it was their first mission I went easy on them and had them lay low for a while and their contacts cut off communication with them for several months while the het died down.

So the players are already wanted for murder from teh first run, then they go and pull something like this. What the heck should I do?

Here is what I think should honestly happen: The hackers at the bar would have called Lonestar as soon as she was kidnapped. Also, they spend a min or two interrogating the hacker they kidnapped, which gave her time to call Lonestar herself in AR, and also hack the vans RFID to broadcast her location to Lonestar. The team does not have a hacker and thus, was not able to intercept her transmissions. So Lonestar is all over the kidnapping and murder within an hour or so. I'm sure they can access gridcab records and track their cab pickup and dropoff location due to all of the users SIN's being given to the police by the hackers who were nosing through their open comlinks.
The players also plan on picking up another cab to leave their current location. I'm sure their SIN's are flagged and Lonestar will be notified as soon as they get into the cab and pay for it with their Comlinks. Lonestar can then get a Tactical team together and set up an ambush site. Lonestar reroutes the cab and tells it to travel to the ambush site and shut down once it gets there, thus, delivering the players right into Lonestar's arms. The characters get tried and convicted and the players roll up new characters. Is this too harsh? Should I give them another chance?
I could go easy on them and have them dogged by Lonestar and runners hired to take them out by friends of the woman they killed, but something is telling me that the players need to be taught a lesson.

Sorry for the really long post, but I'm in a pickle here.

Do your players understand that they can be tracked this easily? If not, now is a good time to school them.

Roleplaying is about fun, so I don't think you should devote an entire session to punishing them. I would, over the next couple of runs drop it on them progressively. Make it hard for them to get a job because of their noteriety. And when they do, make the next couple runs implicit on them not killing anyone, or suffer the consequences.

I would also have lonestar hassle them, to the point where they had to hide their faces and buy new sins. Make a couple patrol men recognize them somewhere when they don't want to be recognized (It's all good to have a battle with lonestar when your characters are geared up and ready, but I doubt they will like it if lonestar busts into their home while they are showering, or injured in the first place.) Basically, let them continue on, but drive the point home.

It sounds like these guys have made themselves this months front page news. Start slow have them be featured on a couple of news broadcasts or in a hightension press conference at city hall. Start having 10 most wanted lists pop up around town. Then step it up, bar start refusing to serve them, the grid cabs sto accepting their SINs etc. Then have the Star really make a move on them tail them with drones for a couple days then have the SWAT team bust in on them at an imopportune time.

In this case I would bring in SWAT. Beat the PCs down but don't kill them. Give them all criminal SINs. Let the lawyer assigned to them give all but the worst person a deal:

The government will go easy on them if they hose the "bad guy".

This should lead to the worst person's life imprisonment (thus he will have to make a new character). Release the others (after a month or so in jail) and always have Lonestar hassle them. "Hey buddy, keeping you nose clean? I heard there was a robbery in everett last night, you wouldn't know anything about that would you?"

Given time the PCs will calm down.

Oh the free contact Parole Officer is always a fun one, especially when they start playing Johnson.........

If behaving should be old hat to your players, feel free to hit them with Lone Star raids or hacker assaults.

I'd recommend you hook them up with an NPC hacker as a "group member," or suggest they hire someone to maintain their PAN security for them. Maybe having a contact or Johnson lean across the table at one point and say "Hey, uh, something wrong with your network security? It's not turned on," and giving them a dubious look, like "Am I really about to hire these yahoos?"

If they're new to all this, dropping them into the deep end isn't the best way to teach 'em how to swim. Have one of their contacts call them up and say "Look, I don't think we should be doing business any more, given how hot you are, but I don't want to leave you out in the cold... word is, the Star is coming for you. You need to go low, get new IDs, new faces if you can. And quickly. Guy I know just clued me in, they rolled out the back door of the precinct house two minutes ago. Good knowing you..." *click* Give 'em a session or two of trying to change who they are, and then see if they've learned.

You can also punish your players but increasing their notoriety and decreasing the loyalty of their contacts. If they complain remind them that people don't like associating themselves with murders.

I agree, start by cutting off their contacts and making it hard for them to find gear and jobs. Give them the chance to work (hard) to get their rep back but if they continue to show blatant regard for authorities and hiding their faces then its time to teach them a lesson with a Lone Star High Threat Response team.

... Oh the kill zone of multiple LMG-equipped Lynx's....

"Hey guys? Isn't that our safe house on the Trid surrounded by cops?"

The group definitely needs to be taught some lessons. The kind of people who would hire a group like that would probably be looking for disposable shock troops so any job they get is likely to be a total cluster @#$%. That is assuming that any of their contacts want anything to do with them at all.

I'd be tempted to have their next several sessions nothing but running from various authorities (Who had that hacker on retainer? The mob? A mega?) trying desperately to stay alive. At the very least I'd track them long enough to deplete any resources they gained in the two runs where they went psycho. But for me I'd probably even get them to a point where they're reduced to a gang level existance at least until they can get back on their feet. (Holding up Stuffer Shacks for food which only serves to bring more police attention.)

This sounds incredibly familiar. Was it part of On The Run?

My group did something similar. Halfway through talking to her, when it was almost assured they'd get the information they need, the mage decided to mind control the hacker. It worked like a charm, but as they were leaving all their commlinks got wiped clean. The only thing they were good for after that was their new primary purpose: loudly broadcasting to everyone except the other party members that this was the group who had mind controlled her.

The group split up and the mage and face ended up driving somewhere together when Lone Star pulled them over. The face fled into the sewers and had a short combat with the air spirit sent along to help. A Lone Star mage was on his way as soon as he found out that the suspect had been found. It didn't matter though, as the mage surrendered and opted to take some jail time.

During that period the mage's player decided to make a new character because he had gotten a better grasp of the SR4 magic rules, so that guy was retired. But if the group ever gets arrested again the face will have trouble for fleeing the scene.

I'd suggest finding a new group. If that's not an option, then "throw the GM book at them".

Have lots of Lone Star show up, maybe even SWAT if they fear weapons or magic. At least let your players *think* they have a chance, but make sure they fail and are either arrested or killed.

You could spin this off and have them escape to another state, city or country and continue their running careers there before their reputations catch up with them. Or give them high-risk jobs where casualties are expected.

The bottom line is, you as the GM must take control!! It's your show.

Great responses thus far. Thanks for all of the ideas.
James - Yes. All of this happened while we were playing On The Run.

Having contacts dry up, and lose loyalty is certainly something I will do. I need to do something else though, to teach them a good lesson. As I said, this is the second time thy have done something like this. THe first time I let them off the hook for the most part. They all had to get new SIN's and places to crash, but things cooled off after several months.
Seems like they didn't get the point though. I thought I stressed that the wonton killing is not going to fly if the runer value thier careers. Looks like the point did not set in.
What kind of things should I do to have Lonestar dog them? Having them show up to do battle with them every now and again will probably excite one or two players as all they seem to care about is battles.
Any ideas as to how I can incovenince them and make life hell for a while, so maybe they will get the message?

Have some of thier houses ransacked by the Star while they are out and about in town. They lose all the gear they left at the house and cant go back due to the Star knowing where they live.
This doesnt kill off the char but hurts them in the wallet and wont give your kill-happy players something to be happy about. In fact, the one with the most weapons is a likely choice for the raid, take away the toys and the guy cant play his way.

Generally, runners like these guys die quickly. The streets balance themselves out in the end.

Honestly, someone needs to come around and geek them all for being morons, and then have them sit through hours of additional character creation as punishment.

Saying "the 'Star think you did it, but don't have enough evidence" can lead to more worthwhile stuff than

Have drones following them around. Let them find their phones bugged, their email read, and little cameras hidden in their houses. Have them get caught in a gel-round driveby obviously aimed at someone else, and inject something useful in the process (like those nano-etchers from SR3... give the character a Criminal SIN without him even knowing it). Have the 'Star call their mom and ask if she knows where her child is, they need to talk to them. Harass their contacts, then charge them extra for gear because they're a pain in the ass to know (I'd probably apply the +20% "police crackdown" modifier). Freeze their accounts. Implant a bug in their cat. Give them lots of speeding tickets, and then impound their car on the outstanding tickets. Cut off the water and power to the building they're squatting in. And always, always, always get some detective who's assigned to their case doing things like pulling them over when they're going somewhere and saying "Let's get a cup of coffee," or (depending on which Michael Mann film you want to reference) "You're gonna cut me in on your action."

A lot of what lets Shadowrunners operate is anonymity, and not drawing the attention of the cops. Making them work to get that anonymity back would probably get more interesting play than "Okay, uh, roll Surprise. Your door just got blown off it's hinges by a shaped charge."

Lone Star snipers can make people get unexcited about combat real quick.

Squinky, that idea was brought up in another thread like this one. It was concluded that, though quick and painless, it would just lead to pissed off players. You should use other ways of correcting thier behavior before you resort to, "And your head explodes..."

Did the players know as they were doing this what the consequences were likely to be?
Do you want them to learn?

You can play them along a bit and have nice IC Consequences to give them hints. Then play out to a big scene and the ongoing plot line.

The moment a PC uses their commlink for anything, like buying breakfast, have sirens be heard a block or two away. Let them escape or shootout and escape.
Have the PC get back to their in the process of being searched by Lone Star apartment.
Have the PC being profiled in excruciating detail on the trid, an interview with former high school sweethearts, "Oh I never would have thought he would have shot some helpless woman!"
Have the PC see video of the kidnapping, someone in the bar is bound to have recorded it.
Keep escalating the forces pursing them as they escape each time. First a beat cop, then a patrol car, then a helicopter, then a Lone Star Mage (Preceeded by watches and spirits), then a SWAT team. Make sure each event is triggered by them using a commlink, or almost any electronic device.
Have the next cab they enter lock them in and start heading for the nearest Lone Star building.
Show footage of one of their contacts being gunned down by Lone Star in an attempted escape.
Have other runner teams show up looking for them.
Have bounty hunters show up looking for them.
Have a little girl in a public place point at the runner and exclaim, "Mommy, that's the man on the trid!"
Have a contact call them, "Oh wow, you still have this commlink on you?" click...
Have everyone calling them on their commlink, the news, the Star, mom, dad, everyone. After each call the sirens are closer... the choppers are louder...

See how long you can string it out before they run into the Johnson who offers them new clean identities for a little job they can do for him first... for free.

Really good suggestions!
All the "comlink use causes alarms to go off" ideas are often, however, they can only be used once. Once I pull that on them they will go and get new comlinks. Getting them without a SIN and through a contact will be extra hairy since no one will want to talk to them, but will still be a pain none the less.
Having the Star bug them has some legs. Drones could follow them, and they could continually get pulled over for this or that.
Minor gun fights will do nothing to deter the players as one of the players is an annoying Gunslinger Adept from the book. He's got 15 freaking dice on his postol tests and just loves to pull called shots for +4DV on EVERYONE! However, a few manifesting spirits sent by a Star mage will really throw him for a loop.
What is the face recognition software like in the SR4 world?

You know Shrike, I may have to houserule that as well. It's thrown the game into disaray.

switch games. It sounds like your players would be better off playing something like DnD Where it's all mayhem all the time

And these type of runners are what Johnsons dream of, set them against a enemy and if they get caught at the enemy's facility, the enemy goes down in flames along with the characters

the first thing to do, always, is to sit down with your players and explain what you see as the problem. Theres a pretty good chance that your viewpoint has not occured to them yet.

past that.... try giving them a run that focuses on catching a villan who made the same mistakes they did. let them see how easy it is to track someone when they need to track them to get paid.

the big problem sounds like the players dont understand the new matrix and commlink rules. most players wont think about it unless their playing a hacker.

If the runners disobeyed the Johnson and killed the guards on the first run, then they're marked men. Black Listed. No Johnson will touch them. The Johnson from that job may very well want them dead.

If they murder a woman they kidnapped in front of dozens of witnesses then they are marked by local law inforcement. Since she was a hacker, they probably got the lady's matrix contracts doing their very best to make sure the entire matrix is their enemy.

They're dead meat. They just don't know it yet. You could spend the next several adventures with them running from those who wish to make their lives a living hell but is that begins to become just as much punishment for you as it is for he players. ( and aren't we in this to have fun? )

I'd sit down and explain this to the players. Tell them that at the current point their characters do not have much of a chance of survival. So you've got two choices. Either kill them off and start again or redefine the game to meet the team's needs. If the team is suited for wetwork then there are jobs for messy folks like that. Corporate contracts where the corps seek to inflict object lessons on remote facilities. Gangs that over step their bounds and need to be eliminated down to the last ganger. A terrorist facility that needs to be taken out, and the survivors tortured for information. Not all jobs are of the stealth, friendly variety. Sometimes the Johnson wants things bloody and messy. It seems that your runners are the type those Johnsons would like to hire. If that's the type of campaign the runners want to run ( and your interested as well ) then have some Johnson come in and recognize the runners potential and offer them some jobs more suited to their particular temperment. In addition the new Johnson can help the players relocate, get new SINs, escape their current problems, and put the sorry story of the runners' brief exploits in more "civilized" running behind them.

I seem to recall the core rulebook suggested having a session discussing with the players what sort of game they're looking for in these situations.

Send the Shadowriders after them.

@ryanstone: Am I right when assuming the name of the murdered female hacker was "Zipper"?

Give them gel rounds to use in their guns?

Sigh

What should you do?

Have fun.

Why are the players acting the way they are? Are they really buying into the game setting? Do they have a different idea of what the setting should be like than you? Do they not want to deal with all those consequenses and just want to play a game of MBAW with a slightly different setting?

In game actions, like every one else seems to be suggesting almost never solve this type of gaming problem.

To use an analogy, you have a hole in the bottom of your boat, you ask for advice on how to fix the hole, but what you are getting are different schemes to bail water out of the boat. All this does is make you do more work. The bottom line is you either need to fix the hole, or get a new boat.

Talk to them, about what they've done wrong, why it's wrong and what they should be doing.

Explain the concept of consequences to them.

Them chase them down using a combination of the above idea's, I can't think of anything else to add.

Them depending on their actions there they will either die of live out their lives as different people.

Ever watch Heat? That DeNiro and Pacino movie? Great example of how the small things can turn into hefty consequences for a player character. Just like today if someone starts thrill killing, the authorities will eventually gear up for the take down. Forensic evidence will lead to their location, and they'll be taken alive if at all possible, and then incarcerated. Then it's don't drop the soap time.

Other comments have been good, but I wanted to re-stress a point:

It's abundantly clear that the GM and the players both have different ideas of what'd make a Shadowrun session enjoyable.

If that difference is really causing you to have a nightmare, then this probably isn't a good group for you to be running with.

The first step is to sit down and talk about how everyone views the game world. It's possible they may WANT to see repercussions. It's also possible that they like the way things have gone and want to continue to play a game with tons of violence and no consequences.

The game is escapism, after all. The bottom line is that if everyone's enjoying it, then it's being played right.

However, if you're not having fun running things the way that they want to play, then something needs to be reconciled. The solution to this isn't "punishment." The solution is most likely that either you or your players need to change their approach to the game. If those approaches can't be reconciled, then it's probably time to find a different group or game.

I've gotta agree with the others on the second page here: this is an OOC issue, and you can't solve OOC issues with IC responses.

Chances are that your players either 1) don't know the hacking rules and haven't thought of the possible consequences of their actions, or 2) don't wish to play in a style of game that limits their ability to murder others regularly and publically.

The solution to either issue is to talk to your players about it. If they don't understand the rules or consequences, tell them what they are. If they don't wish to play a game which requires them to lay low rather than going in all guns blazing, then either run that type of game or tell them you'll only run your game your way, they can run their own games differently.

The solution is not to "teach them a lesson" by thinking of horrible ways for in-game consequences to come crashing down on the characters because the players didn't know how the game world worked.

-C.

Very rational responses guys. Thanks.
I was dismayed and more than a little pi$$ed (in the american way, not the english way) when I first created this post and I honestly had punishment on my mind.
You've all provided me not only with ideas as to how I should handle the situation, but you've also made me look at the situation rationally.
I am going to talk to the players. The murder in question was perpetrated by a player who knows the Shadowrun "universe well." He's a colector of books and litterally owns 90% of the SR books from 1e up until 4e. He has read Neuromancer several times and has even ready the most recent SR novels. suffice to say, he knows the setting. I think the murder boils down to him snapping. He got pissed when she stonewalled him after he made two random references to the sale of the disk. The character is a mage, and everyone thought that he was going to stun her after she gave up the information, instead, he gave her a massivly overpowered Powerbolt. At any rate, my point is that I think this is an isolated incident. I am going to take all of your advice and talk to this player and see if this is the direction he wants to take his character. If so, the I'll have to adjust the game accordingly. The other players were not only surprised, but some were outright pissed when he did this. One player even did a great job of role-playing his characters revulsion to the point where he left the party and went on his own for a bit so he could think.
Anyways, here are some ideas I have for handling this situation:
1) If the players attempt to catch a cab from the location they are currently at, the cab will go on lock down and emit a warning saying that criminals are inside and that Lonestar has been notified. This will force the characters to break out the windows and escape on foot. Minor inconvenience, but it will let them know the heat is on.
2) Life in the Matrix or in ARO will be difficult. Bombarded with SPAM, messages that call the characters Murderers, and stuff like that.
3) Lonestar does not have the evidence to arrest them, however, they are going to hastle the crap out of them. They will pull the players over when they are on the way to a run and loaded with equipment. They will burst into meets with Johnsonsand scare off the Johnson and then interrogate the players.
4) Possile use of the Shadowriders with the possibility of joining them if thats the way they want the game to do.

And that's about it. The players will be hit in the pocket book because they were careless. I will have Fixers, or other contacts explain to them why they were sloppy and point out to them the nuances of the wireless world.

Lots of people have told me to get new players, but that not really something I want to do. These are my close friends. We've been gaming together for years and hang out weekly when we aren't gaming.

Does the above seem fair?

Something that I don't think has been mentioned is the idea of rewarding the characters when they do something good/interesting/non-murderous, rather than punishing them for the 'bad' stuff... e.g. give them more karma/some cool gear/a new contact etc, so that the others players can see what happens when you do it right.

ryanstone, sounds like you've got the best solution to the situation right there.

I think this should have been posted in the general SR forum rather than the SR4 forum because it is dealing with general gaming issues rather than something which is very specific to the SR4 ruleset. More people would see it in the general forum.


Personally, I'd run the party through at least one SWAT team ambush which they may or may not survive if they committed murder in this very flagrant and visible way. If they survive they can, like, hide their identities, lie low for a while, and continue with life.

Dire, that is an awesome idea!
It's ideas like that that I really need and appreciate because my grasp on the intricacies of the SR universe are less than firm to say the least.
I think I'll have a new fixer contact them with a job, and some comlinks. The comlinks will have the comcodes compramised and the runs he is offering up are shadey to say the least. Since this is the only guy offering up jobs, they have little choice but to take them and attempt to clean up their image in an attempt to get some reputable work lined up.

Sometime down the road a Hacker group can contact them with a little Job.

The payment would be an erasure of various incriminating pieces of evidence.
certian files would be shifted into cold storage. ect. They again become nobodies.

If that is the way the players would like the game to go then, perhaps...

A Johnson approches them for a job. He has a little problem with foriegn relations.
(Peace has broken out that that is bad for buisness.) He sends the runners after some information and equipment in another country. Even offers to smuggle them into the country and outfit them with equipment once they get there. While this stuff does exist, it is not possessed by the foriegn diplomats he claims have it. It is possesed by the military or some important firm in that country. The equipment used to belong to the Special Forces of the military that used to be at war with the country that they are in.

Having a rep as a Pschopathic bunch of killers means that people will more likely shoot first, then ask questions.

if you try everything suggested and they still don't change, make them roleplay being in jail.

"Active Skill:
Makeshift weapon (shank) - 1 (2)"
Here i come!

j/k lol

I was playing in a game with a bunch of poster children for ritalin like this. Next game I pulled out a racist Tir noble slashermonkey with combat monster and impulsive balanced by daredevil. They hated being the ones to do the thinking and to restrain the spasm.


Generally I like my schit to run like "The Italian Job"...but if you want to run "Bad 80's cinema" far be it from me to stop you............

We are supposed to be finishing up the run this weekend so I'll let you guys know how things turn out.
For any of you that have run or are familiar with On the Run, how do you think their employer would react to the men he hired being plaster all over the Trid as muderers?
They now have the good he was after. When they call to set up a meet would he even want to risk being caught? They were just supposed to track down some info and buy or steal it so Lonestar probably won't hastle the guy too much.
However, he now knows these guys are off the deep end and loose cannons and certainly wouldn't want to show up in person. Maybe send a lackey to do the meet or something.
What do you all think?

I'd have thought Johnson would be somewhat leary of meeting them, maybe waiting for the heat to die down. Meanwhile other interested parties could track down the players, although they'd probably be less inclined to talk than they would if the players had pursued a less bloodthirsty route.

I do own and have read On The Run, although I've not run it. It occurs to me, based on your description, that it might be worth beefing up any potential opponents appropriately. Drones are always good ^^

The Big Troll Johnson with several big troll bodyguards?

Runners are hired for Plausible Deniability.
Officially Mr. Johnson has never meet the Runners,
and does not know who they are.

Did they do anything that in anyway can be connected back to the Johnson?

In not he might just give them a stern lecture on making unwanted enemies.

The drop might be a little more complex as it is now more difficult not to be associated with the Runners.