Cost of surgery, hhmm? Options

[DarkCrisis]

What is the cost to have cyberware installed? I can't seem to find it.

I figured it was already added into the listed cost but that would mean buying/selling it from the blackmarket etc means the price is wrong.

So... whats the average cost for the various types of surgery?

[Teulisch]

well, the most current place to look for implant surgery is in SR3 man and machine, at the back of the book. As cyberware has dropped greatly in price from SR3 to SR4, i would assume that cost of surgury has also dropped.

we will probably see the apropriate costs for surgury in Arsenal when it comes out. Until then, i would suggest setting surgury cost as a % of the cost of the ware installed, based on its grade and/or essence.

[Voran]

Given the price of gear, especially at higher grades, you may as well give the playerchars freebies for surgery, assuming the cost of surgery is rolled into it. But I guess I aim towards a more lenient approach :)

[Serbitar]

Traditionally, surgery costs are included in the cyberware price tag.

[DarkCrisis]

Then how do you determine blackmarket value?

Say a runner buys a cyberarm at the blackmarket for book cost, he goes toa cyberdoc for free? And if they are selling one they are getting surgery fees as well!

Seems like a wierd way to handle it.

Is thier a percentage I can shave off the cost? How much?

[Thorn Black]

I don't have the book in front of me, but are there not costs for hospitalisation (lifestyle) as there were in SR2? Could you not work out how long the character would be in for and charge accordingly?

[TBRMInsanity]

The cost of surgery is added into the cost of the cyberware/bioware. Else your DocWagon covers the small costs. Just remember though that Basic DocWagon only gets you a community room.

[NightHaunter]

There is a hospitalization lifestyle cost, in the Running the Shadows chapter I think, no RAW handy, either that or the descriptions of the lifestyles in the Character Gen Section.
Also surgery costs have NOT been included before, cos they were listed in M&M, and ShadowTech.

[Edward]

I would say that if you buy cyber wear on the black marked and get somebody else to install it you actually bay less to your spuplyer and a little bit that is left over goes to your street dock, but itsto much trouble to work out properly.

When things get confusing is when you want to give some cyber to a another character in the party. For example the samy decides to donate his wired reflexes 2 to the hacker when he gets his new cerebral booster 3 installed. Then what do you charge for surgery.

If you really feel the need to to man and machine to look for a guideline, or just wait for the new equivalent.

Edward

[Grinder]

[DarkCrisis]

I dont suppose anyone had that Man and Machine chart handy?

[Teulisch]

the table with costs is on page 151 of M&M.

some of the costs require you to actualy read the SR3 surgury rules to make sense of- preparing a medical profile 20*skill, planning surgury procedure 100/MP, Implant surgury 40*skill.

the patient also takes boxes of damage based on the essence cost of the implant. 9 boxes at 5.5+ essence. the chart scales to 8.9+, as thats how much SR3 bioware you could get.

no medical profile would increse the TN by 1 or more. the MP of the plan is basetime*2, with basetime set at 72 hours for cyberware and 60 for bioware.

if your doctor is skill 6, than cost is goingto be (120+14,400+240=) 14,760. the majority of the time and effort is actualy in the surgury plan by SR3 rules. this just seems wrong to me- a way to kick the price up there for even the smallest implants like a datajack. I would suggest just dropping the 'plan' cost down to 100 or so, which would put surgury at a more reasonable 460 :nuyen:

Due to the difference in how dice work from SR3 to SR4, i would replace skill with dicepool. so a skill 3 stat 3 would get paid the above 460, while a skill 6 stat 6 would get paid closer to 1000 :nuyen:

most of the money the doctor makes is going to be from profit off sale of ware (he probably has a good profit margin on most ware), and on the hospital bed you recover in from the surgury at 500/day.

[NightHaunter]

Did any one find a page reference for the SR4, hospitalization cost yet?
I'm sure it's in the Beyond the Shadows chapter now.

[Geekkake]

Y'know, I don't remember surgery "traditionally" being included in 'ware costs, unless by "traditionally", you mean "traditional for my group." In every edition, surgery costs have been added to one sourcebook or other.

If you want to reduce the cost of surgery, one option is to buy your augmentations from a surgical boutique. You could very easily say that the place offers discounted surgery if you buy your 'ware from them. However, it's my opinion (MY OPINION) that surgery costs should definitely be levied against the patient. Mostly, because I like to charge the shit out of my players. Your mileage, and all that.

[Ophis]

Hospitalized Life style p261 (despite what the index says)

[NightHaunter]

[DarkCrisis]

So basicly 500 is the cost of surgery? Unless it's major like Wired Reflexes or something?

[Geekkake]

[Edward]

As I recall those rules also made it fare more efficient (cheaper and more effective) to bring in a magically trained nurse instead of having a specialized plan for the surgery. Also if you got the plan done you would likely be waiting a month for that alone.

Also its cheaper to bring in a mage to cast a healing spell on you than to stay in hospital while you heal (based on eth fact that ward settings worth 100 nuyen an hour a healing spell cant be worth more than a couple of hundred.

Edward

[Geekkake]

[Shrike30]

Considering how much SR money has changed it's value between the two editions, I'm not sure the old-edition prices are really appropriate anymore.

I'm just saying the cost of surgery is rolled into the cost of buying the cyber for the moment. If the characters end up with a piece of ware they want implanted, I'd probably eyeball the piece of ware, decide how much damage getting something like that implanted would do, and stick them in the hospital with that much damage to heal up.

Remember, folks, the tech has progressed. IIRC the BBB mentions that datajacks are a nanite-based procedure that's done in mall shops. Shorter hospital stays are part of life ;)

[Toptomcat]

Many people, including me, hate hate hate the M+M rules. I assume that surgery is included in the cost of the 'ware, you don't have to roll for it, and furthermore that the Essence hole 'option' is automatically taken for every replacement surgery.

[Ice Hammer]

This issue actually came up in my SR game last night. As the GM, with no real set rules in place for the surgery cost, I just based the cost of the surgery roughly on the costs of surgery of today, to make it fairly realistic. I figured, using a cyber clinic, with proper, sterilized equipment, proper monitors, and having a descent medical staff would be EXPENSIVE. More so in the future, dealing with all the cybernetic tools a doctor would have to use to replace cyberware. So, I just assigned a nice, round number that sounded fairly reasonable for the cyber surgery... 50,000 newyen. Fortunately, he was able to afford it, but goes to show, that having a SIN and insurance can sometimes be a good thing. ;)

Fortunately, the character creation rules don't make a character really take into account surgery costs at character creation. I think its just assumed that the character paid for the cost sometime in their past. If they did make characters pay for implantation at character creation, I'm guessing there would be a lot less cyberware for new characters, especially when you're dealing with extensive modifications such as wired reflexes or muscle replacement.

[Edward]

Ice Hammer

So according to your assessment most cyber wear costs more in surgery than the price of the wear itself.

Although this may make a certon amount of sense you will quickly find that it creates a major balance issue. As magical have no comparable costs.

Also implant surgery will not be covered to a great degree buy any form of medical insurance it just wouldn’t be economical. Anybody that didn’t want implants would not get the level of cover that includes it, and anybody that did get that level of insurance would make huge claims.

Its like cosmetic surgery today.

Maintenance and repair costs would possibly be covered buy medical insurance (depending on level of cover)

[Voran]

I hate the M&M rules too. Thankfully optional, but the whole thing of adding more mods to TNs and coming up with perks/flaws from the surgery itself and stress points to bio/cyber made me want to cry.