What is the cost to have cyberware installed? I can't seem to find it.

I figured it was already added into the listed cost but that would mean buying/selling it from the blackmarket etc means the price is wrong.

So... whats the average cost for the various types of surgery?

well, the most current place to look for implant surgery is in SR3 man and machine, at the back of the book. As cyberware has dropped greatly in price from SR3 to SR4, i would assume that cost of surgury has also dropped.

we will probably see the apropriate costs for surgury in Arsenal when it comes out. Until then, i would suggest setting surgury cost as a % of the cost of the ware installed, based on its grade and/or essence.

Given the price of gear, especially at higher grades, you may as well give the playerchars freebies for surgery, assuming the cost of surgery is rolled into it. But I guess I aim towards a more lenient approach

Traditionally, surgery costs are included in the cyberware price tag.

Then how do you determine blackmarket value?

Say a runner buys a cyberarm at the blackmarket for book cost, he goes toa cyberdoc for free? And if they are selling one they are getting surgery fees as well!

Seems like a wierd way to handle it.

Is thier a percentage I can shave off the cost? How much?

I don't have the book in front of me, but are there not costs for hospitalisation (lifestyle) as there were in SR2? Could you not work out how long the character would be in for and charge accordingly?

The cost of surgery is added into the cost of the cyberware/bioware. Else your DocWagon covers the small costs. Just remember though that Basic DocWagon only gets you a community room.

There is a hospitalization lifestyle cost, in the Running the Shadows chapter I think, no RAW handy, either that or the descriptions of the lifestyles in the Character Gen Section.
Also surgery costs have NOT been included before, cos they were listed in M&M, and ShadowTech.

I would say that if you buy cyber wear on the black marked and get somebody else to install it you actually bay less to your spuplyer and a little bit that is left over goes to your street dock, but itsto much trouble to work out properly.

When things get confusing is when you want to give some cyber to a another character in the party. For example the samy decides to donate his wired reflexes 2 to the hacker when he gets his new cerebral booster 3 installed. Then what do you charge for surgery.

If you really feel the need to to man and machine to look for a guideline, or just wait for the new equivalent.

Edward

I dont suppose anyone had that Man and Machine chart handy?

the table with costs is on page 151 of M&M.

some of the costs require you to actualy read the SR3 surgury rules to make sense of- preparing a medical profile 20*skill, planning surgury procedure 100/MP, Implant surgury 40*skill.

the patient also takes boxes of damage based on the essence cost of the implant. 9 boxes at 5.5+ essence. the chart scales to 8.9+, as thats how much SR3 bioware you could get.

no medical profile would increse the TN by 1 or more. the MP of the plan is basetime*2, with basetime set at 72 hours for cyberware and 60 for bioware.

if your doctor is skill 6, than cost is goingto be (120+14,400+240=) 14,760. the majority of the time and effort is actualy in the surgury plan by SR3 rules. this just seems wrong to me- a way to kick the price up there for even the smallest implants like a datajack. I would suggest just dropping the 'plan' cost down to 100 or so, which would put surgury at a more reasonable 460

Due to the difference in how dice work from SR3 to SR4, i would replace skill with dicepool. so a skill 3 stat 3 would get paid the above 460, while a skill 6 stat 6 would get paid closer to 1000

most of the money the doctor makes is going to be from profit off sale of ware (he probably has a good profit margin on most ware), and on the hospital bed you recover in from the surgury at 500/day.

Did any one find a page reference for the SR4, hospitalization cost yet?
I'm sure it's in the Beyond the Shadows chapter now.

Y'know, I don't remember surgery "traditionally" being included in 'ware costs, unless by "traditionally", you mean "traditional for my group." In every edition, surgery costs have been added to one sourcebook or other.

If you want to reduce the cost of surgery, one option is to buy your augmentations from a surgical boutique. You could very easily say that the place offers discounted surgery if you buy your 'ware from them. However, it's my opinion (MY OPINION) that surgery costs should definitely be levied against the patient. Mostly, because I like to charge the shit out of my players. Your mileage, and all that.

Hospitalized Life style p261 (despite what the index says)

So basicly 500 is the cost of surgery? Unless it's major like Wired Reflexes or something?

As I recall those rules also made it fare more efficient (cheaper and more effective) to bring in a magically trained nurse instead of having a specialized plan for the surgery. Also if you got the plan done you would likely be waiting a month for that alone.

Also its cheaper to bring in a mage to cast a healing spell on you than to stay in hospital while you heal (based on eth fact that ward settings worth 100 nuyen an hour a healing spell cant be worth more than a couple of hundred.

Edward

Considering how much SR money has changed it's value between the two editions, I'm not sure the old-edition prices are really appropriate anymore.

I'm just saying the cost of surgery is rolled into the cost of buying the cyber for the moment. If the characters end up with a piece of ware they want implanted, I'd probably eyeball the piece of ware, decide how much damage getting something like that implanted would do, and stick them in the hospital with that much damage to heal up.

Remember, folks, the tech has progressed. IIRC the BBB mentions that datajacks are a nanite-based procedure that's done in mall shops. Shorter hospital stays are part of life

Many people, including me, hate hate hate the M+M rules. I assume that surgery is included in the cost of the 'ware, you don't have to roll for it, and furthermore that the Essence hole 'option' is automatically taken for every replacement surgery.

This issue actually came up in my SR game last night. As the GM, with no real set rules in place for the surgery cost, I just based the cost of the surgery roughly on the costs of surgery of today, to make it fairly realistic. I figured, using a cyber clinic, with proper, sterilized equipment, proper monitors, and having a descent medical staff would be EXPENSIVE. More so in the future, dealing with all the cybernetic tools a doctor would have to use to replace cyberware. So, I just assigned a nice, round number that sounded fairly reasonable for the cyber surgery... 50,000 newyen. Fortunately, he was able to afford it, but goes to show, that having a SIN and insurance can sometimes be a good thing.

Fortunately, the character creation rules don't make a character really take into account surgery costs at character creation. I think its just assumed that the character paid for the cost sometime in their past. If they did make characters pay for implantation at character creation, I'm guessing there would be a lot less cyberware for new characters, especially when you're dealing with extensive modifications such as wired reflexes or muscle replacement.

Ice Hammer

So according to your assessment most cyber wear costs more in surgery than the price of the wear itself.

Although this may make a certon amount of sense you will quickly find that it creates a major balance issue. As magical have no comparable costs.

Also implant surgery will not be covered to a great degree buy any form of medical insurance it just wouldn’t be economical. Anybody that didn’t want implants would not get the level of cover that includes it, and anybody that did get that level of insurance would make huge claims.

Its like cosmetic surgery today.

Maintenance and repair costs would possibly be covered buy medical insurance (depending on level of cover)

I hate the M&M rules too. Thankfully optional, but the whole thing of adding more mods to TNs and coming up with perks/flaws from the surgery itself and stress points to bio/cyber made me want to cry.

I am not sure that 50,000 nuyen is necessarily a realistic number, nor reasonable for actual gameplay. You can get custom grown bioware made to increase your brain's logic rating 3 three for almost half of that. That is serious neuroscientific mojo so to speak.

While surgery is an expensive thing today, medicine in SR4 has made leaps and bounds. You can recover from deadly wounds in roughly a weak with cheap, nano-assisted, at-home medical care. Surgery can be done by robots, or by remote. Given the massive decrease in medically related stuff, or just cyberware in general I think that 50,000 is just absurd for surgery short of the installation of something like Move By Wire.

I played online at a place that used the Man and Machine cyber rules. It also didn't have any cap on creating magical characters, other than you can't have more than one at a time.

Needless to say, the best doctors were heavily initiated magicians who didn't charge a cent, used centering to reduce the TNs to bupkis, and pulled magical healing out of the ass liek wo. In the end, people basically got all the fun options with none of the associated costs, unless you weren't part of their clique. Then you had to go through an NPC or just do without.

It's no surprise that when I stopped playing there, about half the game was awakened to some degree.

In short: The rules for surgery are needlessly complex and seem as if they're there to just bitchslap mundanes around. I am very glad that SR4 has moved away from the fiendish complexity of stress and bio index and so on. Here's to hoping they aren't reintroduced in the warebook, eh?

Please? I'll send you kittens and Guinness.

There were other factors to be taken into account as well...it was a clinic in Bellevue (a very high quality clinic), very professional doctors, and it was also open 24 hours. So maybe 50,000 was a bit high, but I also think that just going by the regular price of the cybereyes and cyberears and repair of the data jacks was too low too. For both rating 4 cybereyes and rating 4 cyberears, you could get them for 3,000 newyen. For the repair of the data jacks, I guess I could have thrown in another 2,000 cost. But in my game, I pay the runners very well, so 50,000 was within their means and was not there just for the sake of putting a hardship on the characters. Also, they had the opportunity of going to a shadow clinic, which would have been cheaper, but they chose not too. So part of the cost was for the quality care and professional medics.

And yes, I do believe that implantation costs should be more expensive than the ware. 9 times out of 10, even in today's economics, labor is usually even higher than the parts. I really don't see how that would change, especially when cyberware or bioware is concerned. It is rather advanced technology, that you have to have fairly specific tools and a highly advanced education to properly repair or replace components or entire units.

Magic probably has helped drop the costs of some surgical costs, and probably, so has nanotech. But as my players remind me, awakened individuals make up a small portion of the population. So not everyone is going to have access to a mage or a shaman for a healing, and if they do have access, it might be expensive as well. And in Shadowrun 3, nanotech was barely making an appearance, and was also very rare. So between 2060 and 2070, in my game world any way, I don't see nanotech making that big of an impact on the medical world, at least not yet. I still see cyberware/bioware implanation as a being a very complicated field, requiring implantation to be fairly expensive.

@ Dissonance What makes you think SR4 has moved away from such complexities as stress and bio index and surgery costs. The current system for bio and cyber interaction is no simpler than the old one (better but not simpler) and the rules for surgery and cyberwear stress where not in the SR3 BBB ether. Thay could still be coming