 Invisible Flashlights, Do they emit light? |
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 Jun 2 2006, 05:12 PM
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#1
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 475 Joined: 13-March 06 From: dusty Mexican borderlands Member No.: 8,372  |
A coworker of mine who plays SR has posed an interesting question:
If you cast Improved Invis on a flashlight or other light source, and make the required Object Resistence hits, would it still emit light? I can't really think of a reason why it wouldn't work. |
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Jun 2 2006, 05:20 PM
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#2
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,026 Joined: 23-November 05 From: Seattle (Really!) Member No.: 7,996 |
Ow, that hurts my brain!
It could be: An invisible light source (the object is affected but the light still shines once away from the affected object) or It could be completely darkened as the light is trapped in side the light warp bubble that keeps you from seeing the object. As far as I can tell there isn't anything in the RAW to help with this puzzle..... |
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Jun 2 2006, 05:32 PM
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#3
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Does Invisibility in SR4 still work with the "Indirect Illusion" principle, ie. it is cast on a "subject" but actually affects the minds of viewers or technological sensors (the targets)? If so, OR shouldn't matter, and it becomes more of a philosophical question -- falling tree in a forest full of deaf squirrels and all that.
To approach the problem from another angle, do you figure that an invisible mirror still reflects light? |
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Jun 2 2006, 05:38 PM
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#4
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 475 Joined: 13-March 06 From: dusty Mexican borderlands Member No.: 8,372 |
The way Invisibility seems to work is regular invisibility is a mana-based illusion, while Improved Invisibility is physical. Which would infer bending light, which raises the question, "why can you still see?" which, I'm sure, has been addressed on this forum repeatedly. As far as the mirror is concerned, of course not. If an invisible object or person doesn't reflect light from its surfaces (which would enable you to see them), then a mirror wouldn't, either. There'd be no difference. |
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Jun 2 2006, 05:39 PM
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#5
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,754 Joined: 9-July 04 From: Modesto, CA Member No.: 6,465 |
I was thinking of this myself. Logically, if Improved Invis bends light, then you couldn't observe it, but I'd wager you could see it's reflection. Magically, if the explaination is "you can't see it at all cause of magic" then there ya go. |
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Jun 2 2006, 05:40 PM
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#6
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 681 Joined: 28-February 06 From: UK Member No.: 8,319 |
If you were truly invisible- light literally moving through or around you- then none of it would be entering your eyes and you would be blind.
EDIT: oops, should have read the preceding posts more thoroughly. |
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Jun 2 2006, 05:44 PM
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#7
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
In SR3, Improved Invisibility is a "Physical" spell, but it quite clearly does not affect light in any way -- it is unambiguously described as affecting only the minds of viewers and technological sensors. What, exactly, does the SR4 description of Invisibility say?
If (as far as affected viewers are concerned) no light leaves the surface of an invisible object, then that probably counts for both reflection and emission, don't you think? |
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Jun 2 2006, 05:46 PM
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#8
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 371 Joined: 10-January 06 From: Regina Member No.: 8,145 |
I don't think you can apply the properties of Physics to Magical effects. Magic by definition overrides the rules of Physics.
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Jun 2 2006, 05:51 PM
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#9
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
SR4 specificly says that the spell bends light.
Worst. Ruling. Ever. On the bright side, making a wall invisible to cast at a target behind it is perfectly legal in SR4 where in SR3 there were all of these 'can you really see behind it'? questions. |
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Jun 2 2006, 05:51 PM
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#10
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 475 Joined: 13-March 06 From: dusty Mexican borderlands Member No.: 8,372 |
Here's how we're breaking it down, so far:
Physics explanation: Once the photons being emitted leave the area affected by the spell, they become visible. Thus, you can see the light and it's source. You wouldn't see the flashlight itself (handle, hood, lens, bulb), but you would be able to locate it if it was pointing in your direction. If it was pointing away or perpendicular or otherwise not in the beam, you've see the reflection from various surfaces. Gameplay compromise: Emitted photons are not visible until they reflect, for whatever reason. It's magic. This allows the light source to remain invisible without making the room dark. |
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Jun 2 2006, 05:52 PM
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#11
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Ouch. |
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Jun 2 2006, 05:55 PM
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#12
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 475 Joined: 13-March 06 From: dusty Mexican borderlands Member No.: 8,372 |
I fail to see how that's the case. Magic is simply another cosmic force that operates according to natural laws. It appears to violate some physical laws of 2006, but assuming it's somehow separate from the way everything else in the universe operates is a little ridiculous. I'd imagine that the physicists of 2070 are hard at work incorporating magical behavior into the overall body of physics knowledge. |
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Jun 2 2006, 06:06 PM
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#13
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 475 Joined: 13-March 06 From: dusty Mexican borderlands Member No.: 8,372 |
Ouch, indeed. If the Improved Invisibility bends light, that means the subject is essentially unaffected by all forms of radiant energy. In addition to be blind, the subject is completely immune to radiant heat, gamma radiation, X-rays, etc. You could theoretically walk into the middle of a nuclear reactor unharmed as long as the spell was sustained. Furthermore, because you're not releasing your own body heat, you would, theoretically, get hotter and hotter as you agitate more and more of the molecules composing your body. So yeah, I need to write the developer on that. [edit]: On the plus side, you'd also be steadily building a static charge, because you can't release it. So cast Improved Invis, do a little dance in a nylon suit for a few minutes, drop the spell, and backhand someone across the face with a good 8-10 amps. You'd practically defibrillate them. |
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Jun 2 2006, 06:15 PM
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#14
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 681 Joined: 28-February 06 From: UK Member No.: 8,319 |
um... 'bends light' doesn't necessarily mean 'bends the entire electromagnetic spectrum' does it?
Why am I even arguing the toss on this? *shrug* Bored I guess. |
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Jun 2 2006, 06:16 PM
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#15
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
According to some dictionaries, "light is electromagnetic radiation with a wavelength that is visible to the eye (visible light) or, in a technical or scientific context, electromagnetic radiation of wavelengths that are studied in the field of optics."
Gamma radiation and X-rays usually fall outside that range and would still affect the target of the spell, so no walking in reactors. I doubt thermal radiation makes for a very large portion of the heat release of a (meta)human being, so overheating wouldn't be a huge problem. |
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Jun 2 2006, 06:27 PM
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#16
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,026 Joined: 23-November 05 From: Seattle (Really!) Member No.: 7,996 |
From SR 4 Pg 201-202
Improved Invisibility bends light in the Visible Spectrum ( see this http://science.howstuffworks.com/light3.htm for just what makes up the visible spectrum). It's the around part that baffles me on both vision and now the flash light, does it also trap light in or does it work like one way glass? |
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Jun 2 2006, 06:31 PM
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#17
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,754 Joined: 9-July 04 From: Modesto, CA Member No.: 6,465 |
It's hard to logically have something invisible. The very nature of bending the light would have distortion issues to say the least. Chalk it up to a Magic one-way-mirror where no one can see you, but you can see them. It's hard, but don't try and argue realism too long with any RPG, especially one with magic in the mix. |
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Jun 2 2006, 06:32 PM
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#18
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
Improved Invisibility says that it warps light... but it doesn't say in what way it warps light. If it creates a "bubble" around which light curves, like water flowing over a pebble (or better yet, like gravitational lensing), then who is to say that light generated from within the bubble can't get out. If this were the case, then you'd see the light itself, perhaps even the very flat disc of the flashlight's lamp but nothing else. If it were pointed other than directly at you, then you would only percieve some very weird lighting affects in your area. Science downside to the above would be being visible to infra-red (you're emitting infra-red rays all the time). The FAQ over on Fanpro's website says that invisible characters cannot see themselves unless they successfully resist the spell, this implies that the "bubble" if that's how it works is wrapped around the character tight! More bandages than bubble. There's also the way you can cast invisibility on something such as a wall to see through it, where the light can't warp around the target at all, but has to either pass through it or teleport somehow. All of this makes the "warping" seems less likely. I like the transparency idea, which means that you could see the light from the flashlight, but not what generated it. Still stuck with giving off infra-read though.
It's not necessarily ridiculous. Magic could supercede Physics entirely whereever they coincide. To use a metaphor we can probably relate to, they're different games systems. But it is fun considering the physics of magic and leads to great atmospheric ideas. Example being that we know vision depends on photons exciting our retinas which means that we need to deal with this somehow. One solution would be that the mage becomes invisible in every way except for his eyes! Whether or not you'd want that in your game is a preference, but it's a creepy and striking image. Another corrolary would be that your eyelids no longer block light, making you unable to look away. Quickened invisibility could drive you nuts. Anyone who's ever seen that old sixties sci-fi movie "The Man with the X-Ray Eyes" will never forget the ending... (*shudder* with his own fingers, too). I know that's a long post, but, uh, it's my first.... Hello Dumpshock. :embarassed: -K. |
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Jun 2 2006, 06:36 PM
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#19
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 681 Joined: 28-February 06 From: UK Member No.: 8,319 |
Hello knasser. :)
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Jun 2 2006, 06:39 PM
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#20
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,512 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 392 |
I may not be right about this since I'm not a physicist but...
Since light warps around the subject that technically means that the subject now has a gravity greater than the local gravity of the earth according to special relativity. Thus it should technically mean that stuff starts gravitating toward the character and there would be a ripple in space where the character moved basically making it impossible to not notice the character's presence. They just wouldn't be able to see you. Maybe it's some sort of Quantum effect. Maybe the spell makes light that reflects off the character suddenly have a near 100% chance of being on the other side of the galaxy. |
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Jun 2 2006, 06:43 PM
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#21
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
So, uhh, someone viewing the object that is subjected to an Improved Invisibility spell can resist the spell and somehow unwarp the light in his mind?
I'd take the "can you see through walls" issue over that any day. |
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Jun 2 2006, 06:46 PM
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#22
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,026 Joined: 23-November 05 From: Seattle (Really!) Member No.: 7,996 |
I'm beginning to like the:
"God Damn it it's magic, it's not supposed to make sense!" answer more and more as we try to figure out how this works. Back to my original thought, Ow this makes my brain hurt. |
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Jun 2 2006, 06:49 PM
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#23
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,754 Joined: 9-July 04 From: Modesto, CA Member No.: 6,465 |
If light is bending around you (much like a large gavitaional body) then you'd see mirror images of things on the other side where normally straight paths of light are crossing but that's not what's happening here. The Target is just completely ignored by light, no reflection, no interaction, nothing. Magic > Physics. |
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Jun 2 2006, 07:13 PM
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#24
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
If the light was warped due to a gravitational effect, then you'd be able to detect the presence of invisible characters by the way you flew towards them at hundreds of k/ph. :D That would be some strong gravity! Besides, as GrinderTheTroll pointed out, there's only a fixed focal distance at which the light would converge correctly to show you things behind the invisible character. Too close and you'd have a weird blindspot, too far away and the scenary behind the invisible character would appear mirrored. |
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Jun 2 2006, 07:23 PM
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#25
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
so the question becomes:
what did the writer mean with the word "warp". it could may well be that he had the vision of the spell somhow messing around with the light after it had passed the lense of whoever observed the person or thing under the spell, but before it hit the light sensors (biological or technical). |
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