The way Invisibility seems to work is regular invisibility is a mana-based illusion, while Improved Invisibility is physical. Which would infer bending light, which raises the question, "why can you still see?" which, I'm sure, has been addressed on this forum repeatedly.

As far as the mirror is concerned, of course not. If an invisible object or person doesn't reflect light from its surfaces (which would enable you to see them), then a mirror wouldn't, either. There'd be no difference.

I was thinking of this myself.

Logically, if Improved Invis bends light, then you couldn't observe it, but I'd wager you could see it's reflection.

Magically, if the explaination is "you can't see it at all cause of magic" then there ya go.

In SR3, Improved Invisibility is a "Physical" spell, but it quite clearly does not affect light in any way -- it is unambiguously described as affecting only the minds of viewers and technological sensors. What, exactly, does the SR4 description of Invisibility say?

If (as far as affected viewers are concerned) no light leaves the surface of an invisible object, then that probably counts for both reflection and emission, don't you think?

Ouch.

I fail to see how that's the case. Magic is simply another cosmic force that operates according to natural laws. It appears to violate some physical laws of 2006, but assuming it's somehow separate from the way everything else in the universe operates is a little ridiculous. I'd imagine that the physicists of 2070 are hard at work incorporating magical behavior into the overall body of physics knowledge.

Ouch, indeed. If the Improved Invisibility bends light, that means the subject is essentially unaffected by all forms of radiant energy. In addition to be blind, the subject is completely immune to radiant heat, gamma radiation, X-rays, etc.

You could theoretically walk into the middle of a nuclear reactor unharmed as long as the spell was sustained.

Furthermore, because you're not releasing your own body heat, you would, theoretically, get hotter and hotter as you agitate more and more of the molecules composing your body.

So yeah, I need to write the developer on that.

[edit]: On the plus side, you'd also be steadily building a static charge, because you can't release it. So cast Improved Invis, do a little dance in a nylon suit for a few minutes, drop the spell, and backhand someone across the face with a good 8-10 amps. You'd practically defibrillate them.

Improved Invisibility bends light in the Visible Spectrum ( see this http://science.howstuffworks.com/light3.htm for just what makes up the visible spectrum). It's the around part that baffles me on both vision and now the flash light, does it also trap light in or does it work like one way glass?

It's hard to logically have something invisible. The very nature of bending the light would have distortion issues to say the least.

Chalk it up to a Magic one-way-mirror where no one can see you, but you can see them.

It's hard, but don't try and argue realism too long with any RPG, especially one with magic in the mix.

It's not necessarily ridiculous. Magic could supercede Physics entirely whereever they coincide. To use a metaphor we can probably relate to, they're different games systems.

But it is fun considering the physics of magic and leads to great atmospheric ideas. Example being that we know vision depends on photons exciting our retinas which means that we need to deal with this somehow. One solution would be that the mage becomes invisible in every way except for his eyes! Whether or not you'd want that in your game is a preference, but it's a creepy and striking image. Another corrolary would be that your eyelids no longer block light, making you unable to look away. Quickened invisibility could drive you nuts. Anyone who's ever seen that old sixties sci-fi movie "The Man with the X-Ray Eyes" will never forget the ending... (*shudder* with his own fingers, too).

I know that's a long post, but, uh, it's my first.... Hello Dumpshock.

-K.

If light is bending around you (much like a large gavitaional body) then you'd see mirror images of things on the other side where normally straight paths of light are crossing but that's not what's happening here. The Target is just completely ignored by light, no reflection, no interaction, nothing.

Magic > Physics.

If the light was warped due to a gravitational effect, then you'd be able to detect the presence of invisible characters by the way you flew towards them at hundreds of k/ph. That would be some strong gravity!

Besides, as GrinderTheTroll pointed out, there's only a fixed focal distance at which the light would converge correctly to show you things behind the invisible character. Too close and you'd have a weird blindspot, too far away and the scenary behind the invisible character would appear mirrored.

Good point, it's not a game breaker like it used to be at times.

That works for the bulk of breakage. It doesn't, however, address the blindness issue.

I'll bet you 50Y it shows up in Arsenal.

You are definitely a Hermetic Mage.

If Magic still conforms to the laws of physics then Mages are "magicians" they are "super-physicists!"

When I tell a joke, should I use more than one ? Had I said "You'll note that, with the new wording of Improved Invisibility, we've also seen the disappearance of the MP laser from the game ", would it have been clearer?

No he hasn't! He's actually solved the whole problem I think, though I'd lay 5 he doesn't know it.

How can one person see the mage and another not? Clearly the light isn't warping around the mage himself, but warping or editing the light as it approaches each of the witnessing characters, critters & cameras. This solves problems of warping light in such a way that you are invisible from any direction. It solves the problem of emitting infra-red radiation from within the "bubble" or indeed light from the flashlight of the original question.

It doesn't solve the problem of the invisible wall, exactly. Drek! He's got us.

I was aware you were joking. Don't make me come over there. I'LL TURN THIS MESSAGE BOARD RIGHT AROUND AND GO HOME

Actually, that might not be wrong either.

Let's think on this, if the failure of a spell to work allows you to see the object but others not to (if they fail), then why not the other way around? If you fail the save but they succeed, the wall is invisible to you, and since light or whatever moved 'around' so you couldn't see the wall, what is to say that the light that came from things behind the wall doesn't warrant LOS?

True, that's silly and, in a way, senseless, but so is how it works in the first place. The LOS is about seeing, not neccessarily LOE (Line of Effect). If you can actually see behind that wall in some strange, bizarre fashion that doesn't involve cutting off the 'line' to get there (such as from a video feed), then technically you have LOS. You just turned that wall into glass.


This is fun, hehe...

That's kinda how I always figured it worked. It basically solves everything, though it leads to some interesting conclusions:

1) No internal overheating. The IR radiation still leaves your body; the photons just get "edited" before getting to that troll's thermographic eyes.
2) An invisible wall would not allow targetting through it. The photons are still bouncing off the wall; they're just being edited before they hit your eyes to make the wall invisible.
2a) This leads to an interesting complication: what would you see instead of the invivible wall? This question has no simple answer. My vote is that you will see whatever it is you expect to see; essentially your brain will "make up" whatever it needs to to render the wall invisible to your vision. See ***NOTE ON VISION*** below before going further.
3) The MP laser leads to an interesting conclusion. Now, obviously the laser would strike the invisible person, and damage him as well. The spell would, however, edit everyone's vision so neither the person nor, naturally, the damage to said person would be seen.
4) Similarly, a person in the rain would still be invisible. The image would be edited so that the rain looked to be falling straight down, even though it was in fact bouncing off the invisible person. Those who argue that you'd see the rain bouncing off the person, and thus see their outline, are totally off-base. Remember that what you're "seeing" does not necessarily need to have anything to do with physical reality, as you are under the effects of an illusion spell which specifically targets your vision.
4a) On the other hand, if you were standing right nest to the person, you would still be able to feel the spray of rain bouncing off of him, and would thus be able to infer something odd's going on if you were paying attention. Remember invisability affects vision only; invisability does not make someone transparent to touch, smell, hearing, or, more importantly, logic.
5) The invisible flashlight would still emit light. It wouldn't matter, though, because the light would be edited out of everything that could see it, rendering the flashlight effectively useless.

Doesn't that make sense? If the devs would just replace "warping" with "editing" it would solve everything.

***NOTE ON VISION***: This whole "seeing what you expect to see" thing actually makes a lot more sense than you may realise. Here's the thing: the brain already "makes up" a surprising amount of what you think you are actually "seeing". Take a look at this site for a demonstration and explainnation of a specific instance of this effect, the blind spot in your eyes that you're likely not aware you even have. There's also the more famous illusions of motion you get from viewing several still pictures

Going back to the invisible wall thing, your brain will likely be persuaded to "make up" whatever it needs to to make that wall invisible. pulling from your memories, your other senses, whatever it needs to. If you know what's in the other room through other means (having been there before, etc) then you'll see what you saw there before; otherwise your brain could make up just about anything, so long as the wall remains invisible.

Hm. That gives me another idea, even more radical than the one above. I call it Advocacy Theory.

Here's an example of how it works. Mage casts a Fireball spell. Under this theory the mage's aura is telling the world: "Okay, world, there will be a giant ball of flame appearing right here." Now, the poor mooks in the way don't like this, so they say in response, "No way, buddy. I can't stop you from making your big-ass ball of fire around me, but you're sure as hell not touching me!" He rolls Body and undoes as much as he can of what he sees as the massive universal screw-up that intersected a giant ball of fire with him. Counterspelling is a friendly mage chiming in on his side of the argument. If the mage "wins" the argument the mook gets fried; if the mook wins then everything gets fried around him, but he doesn't because he won his part of the cosmic argument that is the fireball spell.

Another example: invisability. Mage tells camera: "You can't see me." Camera says: "The hell you say?" Mage argues with OR. If OR wins the mage shuts up and goes away. Otherwise, the camera loses and is no longer allowed to see the mage. Camera: "Well WTF am I supposed to put in the giant gaping hole there?" Mage: "Not my problem; ask someone else." Camera thinks back and 'remembers' there was a wall and a floor where mage is, and a picture frame on the wall as well, so he shrugs and puts all that in instead, then shrugs, calls it a day and resolves to get wasted later that evening, maybe hook up with that lamp down the hall.

So basically magic is the process by which auras bitch at each other.

Yeah, definately time for bed.

Nope. Indirect spells are still resolved like ranged combat.

In Shadowrun trying to apply physics to physics is just asking for trouble.