 Initiation, The Evergreen Addiction |
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 Jun 4 2006, 11:11 PM
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#26
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Great Dragon  Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935  |
Don't forget Reflecting, the ultimate passive-aggressive metamagic...which is always funny to watch when someone tries to do Reflecting and Absorbing at the same time.
The exact break point depends on how your character is scoped out, but if you don't institute Karma-saving measures it generally comes around the 14-15 skill mark for sorcerors and conjurers.
Check the second paragraph under Centering Skills, same page. An arcane language is a language, usually obscure or mystical, that you recite in while performing your centering ritual. Generally, the language depends on your culture/tradition (examples include Gaelic, Hebrew, Latin, Nahuatl, and Sperethiel), but it may also include "mystical" languages like Enochian. |
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Jun 4 2006, 11:11 PM
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#27
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 530 Joined: 11-June 05 Member No.: 7,441 |
Well, if what you want is elemental effect, shielding works.
Because shielding doesn't actually cancel out successes -- it just adds to the spell resistance -- you can feasibly knock the elemental effect spell down to a level where it doesn't affect you at all, but it affects everyone around you. Also note that you are always able to affect yourself with a spell, even if you can't see yourself. Sight is the most common vector for casting a spell, but not the only one. Touch works, and well, you're always touching yourself. (no, I did not mean it like *THAT*. Bugger off, you sickos). |
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Jun 5 2006, 12:48 AM
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#28
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,066 Joined: 5-February 03 Member No.: 4,017 |
I think that's exactly what they plan to do. |
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Jun 5 2006, 04:24 AM
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#29
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Moving Target Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 590 Joined: 23-July 03 From: outside America Member No.: 5,015 |
I'm looking where it says
So you could have sculpting or metalworking as a creative skill (since you're creating something artistic) and centre using it while enchanting, but it would be hard to do on the fly out in the field. I was thinking Ancient Languages was an active skill that lets you actively chant and gesticulate etc in one of the languages you know (and don't use in every day speech). But if your creative skill can be Active or Knowledge or Language, then chanting some language is definitely the way to go to save karma. I am still unsure what Knowledge skills could be considered creative. "I know about Elven Fine Wines so I will think really really hard about them, and mystically now be able to hit the goon with partial cover..." I just don't see how knowing about some field can be creative.
So that's the point at which buying two levels of an Active skill (Centring) plus two levels of an Active/Knowledge(/Language) skill (your chosen creative skill) costs less karma than buying one level in each of your magical (or if Adept then Stealth/Athletics/Other) skills that you plan to use Centring with? If your creative skill is Active, and you could apply Centring to four skills, advancing via either route would cost the same (if your linked attributes were equal). So Centring is the cheaper route if you (a) use a Language creative skill and/or (b) can use Centring on four or more skills.
Ah yes - to clarify my previous post, I want to cast a Powerball that will affect all combatants in melee range to me but I don't want to nuke myself. Powerball only affects targets I can see. Theoretically I could carry a discoball with me everywhere, Levitate2 it up in the air with a spell-lock, quickly cast Invisibility, intentionally fail to resist my own spell, and then Powerball ground zero safe in the knowledge I won't affect myself (can't see myself) and I will affect all my enemies (can see them all). But that's munchy. Whereas cutting off my nose to spite my face (sic) - that's just stupid.
It sounds to me like the lyricist of this song was clearly not thinking laterally enough when using their creative skill Songwriting(Cha). Ought to play more RPGs with mages who point out that even though they're tied up and blind-folded they can still target themselves with a touch spell. |
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Jun 5 2006, 04:43 AM
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#30
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
Remember with SR3, you get free Knowledge points. Essentially you can start the game with the artistic skill all in place and good to go. As to what artistic skill is applicable in what situation, the rules do not explicitly rule on what is acceptable and leave that to the individual GM. But by canon/RAW, you could possibly use "Fine Elven Wines" to center when casting a huge Powerball.
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Jun 5 2006, 05:17 AM
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#31
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Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
I have a Ghost mage who recites the Ghost Creed (or other things, it depends on the situation) as his Centering skill.
The Ghost Creed is like the Ranger Creed, btw, only fr00ty. |
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Jun 5 2006, 08:34 AM
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#32
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 530 Joined: 11-June 05 Member No.: 7,441 |
My understanding was always that the LOS requirement could be satisfied by touch, but touch could not be satisfied by LOS. After reading SR3 spell targetting passage, I'm not sure where I got that impression, though. |
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Jun 5 2006, 09:39 AM
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#33
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Possibly SR4, whihch specificly says that LOS can be satisfied by touch instead. |
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Jun 5 2006, 10:49 AM
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#34
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,590 Joined: 11-September 04 Member No.: 6,650 |
Can i point out that in SR3, facng does not affect LOS
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Jun 5 2006, 12:43 PM
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#35
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,095 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Ontari-airee-o Member No.: 1,115 |
Please correct me if I am wrong, (no doubt you all will) but can't you just research and develop a spell formula that will do just that? You can take away the LOS requirement, lower the drain code by 1, then just make yourself exclusive so it radiates outward, (for that customization, I would rule the drain code goes back up 1) |
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Jun 5 2006, 12:45 PM
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#36
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Moving Target Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 590 Joined: 23-July 03 From: outside America Member No.: 5,015 |
Do you mean by this that if I am staring intently at the newspaper and a pigeon poops on me as it flies past I can fry that sucker with a manabolt without even looking up, simply because it is potentially visible to me if I were looking in the right direction? |
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Jun 5 2006, 01:24 PM
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#37
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Horror Group: Members Posts: 5,322 Joined: 15-June 05 From: BumFuck, New Jersey Member No.: 7,445 |
It's souper, isen't it? :) |
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Jun 5 2006, 01:52 PM
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#38
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
The GM may force you to make a perception test to determine if you actually see it.
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Jun 5 2006, 06:28 PM
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#39
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,556 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 98 |
Is that an Active skill use? |
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Jun 5 2006, 06:31 PM
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#40
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,589 Joined: 28-November 05 Member No.: 8,019 |
What's the Evergreen Addiction?
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Jun 5 2006, 08:23 PM
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#41
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Mystery Archaeologist Group: Members Posts: 2,906 Joined: 19-September 05 From: The apple tree Member No.: 7,760 |
The destructive habit of mainlining fir trees :)
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Jun 5 2006, 09:11 PM
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#42
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Moving Target Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 590 Joined: 23-July 03 From: outside America Member No.: 5,015 |
Well that's just my point. As Kremlin suggested, you only have to have Line-of-sight from (some part of) your body to (some part of) your target for you to be able to target them with a spell. This may be why in the rules it always speaks of mage "having LOS" to a target rather than simply "seeing" them. If facing does not affect LOS, then that means I can land a Powerball on myself and affect all targets within range, in front of me, beside me and behind me; they don't get "total cover" from my cranium / hair / hat. It also means I can read a newspaper while I manabolt a pigeon flying behind me without ever having to actually see it at all. It also means I don't need a makeup mirror to send a spell around a corner in a hallway - I just have to poke my pinky around the corner and hey-presto I have LOS to them despite being unable to see them. Come to think of it, if spells start shooting out of an array of fibre-optics, all I have to do is plant my palm across them and cast: as long as the mage on the other end isn't wearing reflective sunglasses, I have LOS to him. I have always thought you needed to be able to see part of your target, ie there is direct or reflected LOS from one of your pupils to any part of the target's body. But if it's not meant to be so restrictive as that after all... hmmm... What's your ruling Ancient History? |
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Jun 5 2006, 09:36 PM
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#43
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
It isn't that you don't have to see the target in LOS it is that SR doesn't use facing at all. he only exception to this is the old DMZ rules. Basicly, you can see anything in plain sight in LOS because there is no set facing. A combat turn is three seconds long. Certainly, you can turn your head at least once in three seconds.
Instead, things like sneaking up behind you or being outside your field of vision are convered by stealth and perception rolls. If you fail a perception check then you can't see it. If you can't see it then you can't cast at it. However, in msot cases a perception roll is unnecessary. If the target isn't using stealth and you aren't distracted there should be no need for one. |
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Jun 5 2006, 10:37 PM
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#44
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
Since you ask - and this is only my opinion, nothing official - I would suggest that LOS refers to exact physical or astral perceptions, which most commonly means sight (and thus, facing does come into consideration), but which in certain cases may refer to other senses - however, such senses would have to be supermetahumanly accurate to directly pinpoint anything beyond a small radius. In all circumstances, a magician who is "firing blind" should receive a modifier to their target number based on their inability to see the target, which would cause the spell to miss or fail. Going by that measure: Hearing - Exactly locating someone with hearing is possible, but they must be close - no more than a meter or two away - and with low ambient noise to confuse the issue. Smell/Taste - The human senses of smell and taste, which are interrelated, are not normally sufficient to locate anyone beyond the immediate vicinity - a 1 meter radius centered on the magician, 2 if they are extremely foul. Touch - The magician should, by rights, be able to target anything he can locate by touch at the moment. If he touches a wall, he could cast urban renewal. If a mosquito is biting him, he can cast a slay mosquito spell, or erect a bug barrier around himself. Vibrations transmitted through the ground or another medium are less helpful unless the magician has a supermetahuman degree of perception, or the direction of the source is very obvious (this is known as the "Magician laying on the train tracks" example). Adept/Cyberware Sense - Ultrasound, natural sonar, and thermographic sense can all be used to cast spells with little difficulty. |
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Jun 6 2006, 03:11 AM
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#45
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Moving Target Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 590 Joined: 23-July 03 From: outside America Member No.: 5,015 |
That sounds reasonable and in line with how I see it.
For a Sustained spell, I'd agree. For an Instant spell such as Powerball though, I've used the notion that it affects everyone you can see at the instant you cast it (so not including the list of people seen in the preceding 3 seconds).
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Jun 6 2006, 04:00 AM
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#46
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
And your target actually teleports from point to point, bullets all fly at the same speed, facing does not affect LOS, because that is the way physics/game mechanics work in SR3. Time/space in SR function differently from RL, it is always good to keep that in mind. If you are the GM, you can always warp SR reality to fit your RL model. But bear in mind, that is your house rule and not canon/RAW.
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Jun 6 2006, 01:02 PM
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#47
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,095 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Ontari-airee-o Member No.: 1,115 |
The way we always interpreted powerballs/manaballs is similar to a grenade.
The mage only needed to have LOS on the target (whether a person car, point in space or a wall), then the spell detonated and radiated out from there and anyone caught in the blast was affected, including friendlies. A few times we had mages trying to use their hands to block the LOS on a friendly in the radius, which just seemed really silly, so we used the "blast radius" rule from there. So in our interpretation, if you detonated it on yourself, you would be able to hit the bird if it was in the blast radius. |
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Jun 6 2006, 03:33 PM
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#48
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
But spellcasting is a process that takes 3 seconds unless you have reflex enhancements. It isn't really instantaneous. |
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Jun 6 2006, 04:38 PM
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#49
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...following a couple of good Karma Hauls (Including Harlequin & Harlequin's Back) during a long running campaign (beginning way back in SR1), the original Kyoto Kid had enough Karma to effectively initiate and raise her MA past 12 (got things turned around a bit in the earlier edit). However, the "Magic Loss" rule tempered this. In the end, KK only initiated to grade 4, burnt out several MPs with some Bio (not enough at any one time to give her that deadly wound from surgery) to keep her net MA at 7. She then dumped the rest of her Karma into improving skills & attributes.
Taking magic loss as a mage is bad enough, it means you can't cast that boffo spell without now taking some serious physical drain. Magic loss for an adept is worse since you lose actual abilities/powers. I'm glad they dropped this rule in SR4 considering that it now costs more than twice what it did in previous editions to increase your MA and get those all important power points. |
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