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> Panther XXL 'recoil' ?
Nim
post Jun 9 2006, 03:09 AM
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Panther XXL: {comes with a} rigid stock with shock pad, though these are hardly enough to compensate for its tremendous recoil.


It has a RC rating of (1), and a Mode of...SS.

Maybe I'm missing something here, as this is my first read through the SR4 rules, but under what circumstances would an SS weapon /ever/ have a recoil penalty? Recoil applies to 'weapons that fire more than one round in an Action Phase', and to 'Burst-fire weapons' (p 142). A Single Shot weapon is clearly neither of these.

Was the coment about 'tremendous recoil' just meaningless fluff that doesn't match the rules, and the point of RC a useless add-on, or is there some other circumstance for recoil that's eluding me?
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CrimsonHawk
post Jun 9 2006, 03:12 AM
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well if you have a speed monkey sam with 3 init passes maybe 4 with some drugs and such theres your second, third and maybe 4th shot in one round it does have a clip :D
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CrimsonHawk
post Jun 9 2006, 03:15 AM
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I just wish they had some RAW for drones and vehicles for recoil. crosses fingers maybe they will have it someday for 4th edition
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Nim
post Jun 9 2006, 03:19 AM
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QUOTE (CrimsonHawk)
well if you have a speed monkey sam with 3 init passes maybe 4 with some drugs and such theres your second, third and maybe 4th shot in one round it does have a clip  :D

Only if there are additional recoil rules beyond what's in the left column of p. 142...those very explicitly only cover attacks during the same Action Phase (not Combat Turn). So shots on your 2nd and 3rd initiative passes should be unaffected.

(I agree that it'd make some sense for recoil to apply to later passes in the same turn, but I don't see anything in the rules to indicate that it DOES. Totally open to being shown I'm wrong....)
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Nikoli
post Jun 9 2006, 03:19 AM
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Just use tripod stats for vehicle mounts. i can't see a turret being worse than a tripod for stability.
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Jaid
post Jun 9 2006, 03:22 AM
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QUOTE (CrimsonHawk)
well if you have a speed monkey sam with 3 init passes maybe 4 with some drugs and such theres your second, third and maybe 4th shot in one round it does have a clip :D

no, recoil is on an IP basis, not per combat turn.

in fact, there is one theoretical way the recoil compensation could factor in: firing multiple weapons. uncompensated recoil from one weapon is applied to the other.

while this is not likely a concern for most shadowrunners (i doubt most GMs would let even the biggest, strongest, toughest troll out there pull this one off), it could theoretically be a concern on vehicles with multiple weapon mounts.

of course, this assumes that the PAC is considered "LMG sized or smaller" (at this point anyways... iirc, that is the limitation given in the BBB for max weapon size on a weapon mount).
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Ophis
post Jun 9 2006, 08:33 AM
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Just because you get only one shot a pass doesn't make the gun not recoil. I'm pretty sure most guns recoil no matter how rapidly you shoot. Sure the Panther never gets a recoil modifier on it's shots, unless your doing something odd, but it will still kick a little with each shot, so the recoil will be punishing, just not problematic for shooting.
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Austere Emancipa...
post Jun 9 2006, 10:38 AM
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In other words, the fluff is that it has punishing recoil, but there is no in-game, rule-enforced penalty from the recoil.
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knasser
post Jun 9 2006, 11:20 AM
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QUOTE (Nim)
Only if there are additional recoil rules beyond what's in the left column of p. 142...those very explicitly only cover attacks during the same Action Phase (not Combat Turn). So shots on your 2nd and 3rd initiative passes should be unaffected.

(I agree that it'd make some sense for recoil to apply to later passes in the same turn, but I don't see anything in the rules to indicate that it DOES. Totally open to being shown I'm wrong....)


This bothers me. I'm prepping to GM my first Shadowrun game and I only realised this yesterday.

How is it that one person can fire six bullets from a gun (two burst fire) and in the same space of time, another person can fire the same amount or more for the same recoil?

I'd like to change this, but I don't know how it would mess up the game.
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Tarantula
post Jun 9 2006, 11:41 AM
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Because, the second persons reactions and speeds are sped up either through drugs, cyberware, bioware, or magic.
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Nim
post Jun 9 2006, 02:08 PM
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QUOTE (Ophis)
Just because you get only one shot a pass doesn't make the gun not recoil. I'm pretty sure most guns recoil no matter how rapidly you shoot. Sure the Panther never gets a recoil modifier on it's shots, unless your doing something odd, but it will still kick a little with each shot, so the recoil will be punishing, just not problematic for shooting.

But the inclusion of a shock pad IS more or less NERPS, yes?

I'm fine with that in general, but it does bug me a /little/ bit that the flavor text (which would leave you with the impression that this is a weapon you'd want a gyro mount for, at the very least) isn't supported by the game mechanics. Mainly because the flavor text in this case seems pretty reasonable :)

On a related point (and I realize there's another thread on this subject, sort of, but it's gone far afield at this point), am I reading correctly that the rule for 'can this heavy weapon be used as a personal firearm by Character X' is 'common sense and GM judgement call'? That is, there are no specific rules about certain weapons requiring mount-points, a minimum Str/Bod, etc?

Not interested right now in the question of what the common sense answer IS (that's where the other thread got bogged down)...just that this is something the rules are leaving to GM judgement.
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TBRMInsanity
post Jun 9 2006, 02:10 PM
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Try to watch the episode of MythBusters (as seen on the discovery channel in Canada) where they bust the myth of being blown away from a gun blast. Now fast forward to the Panther XXL, this is the weapon that WILL blow you away. The recoil on this weapon will put anyone tring to fire this thinkg un-supported through a wall.
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Austere Emancipa...
post Jun 9 2006, 02:27 PM
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A healthy amount of exaggeration there. ;) The damage code of the Assault Cannons is not, neither in SR4 or SR3, all that huge. Sure, it's a big-ass gun. So is the Barrett M82, and the Barrett XM109 (which is generally considered the best real-world equivalent for SR's assault cannons), both of which can be fired by humans just fine. I imagine the XM109 can cross over to the uncomfortable range for most shooters, by some accounts having a recoil significantly stiffer than 12G magnums, but it's unlikely to put you on your ass, nevermind through a wall.

FNH USA were showing off a "High Impulse Weapon System" in one of the Blackwater Shootouts that fired 40mm high-velocity grenades, like those fired from the Mk 19 automatic GL. That's well outside of the power range of an "assault cannon". It also had a quite advanced form of recoil reduction buffer, and yet plenty of people were dropped on their asses firing it. In fact a lot of large men, and experienced shooters, staggered backwards several meters before falling on their asses firing that thing. I'm pretty sure nothing came out of the HIWS fad. :)
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Thorn Black
post Jun 9 2006, 03:38 PM
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I was watching the news on TV last night and saw some footage of fighters in some far off place firing a Russian made recoil-less gun. I know bugger all about RL firearms but it had a barrel large enough to accomodate a 2L bottle of Soy-pepsi and apart from a big bang and a ton of dust and smoke there was minimum recoil.

Surely we can assume that a similar technology of redirecting the venting gasses has been used on the PAC?
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Geekkake
post Jun 9 2006, 03:40 PM
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QUOTE (Thorn Black)
I was watching the news on TV last night and saw some footage of fighters in some far off place firing a Russian made recoil-less gun. I know bugger all about RL firearms but it had a barrel large enough to accomodate a 2L bottle of Soy-pepsi and apart from a big bang and a ton of dust and smoke there was minimum recoil.

Surely we can assume that a similar technology of redirecting the venting gasses has been used on the PAC?

More along the lines of something like this.
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GrinderTheTroll
post Jun 9 2006, 04:41 PM
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QUOTE (Nim)
QUOTE
Panther XXL: {comes with a} rigid stock with shock pad, though these are hardly enough to compensate for its tremendous recoil.


It has a RC rating of (1), and a Mode of...SS.

Maybe I'm missing something here, as this is my first read through the SR4 rules, but under what circumstances would an SS weapon /ever/ have a recoil penalty? Recoil applies to 'weapons that fire more than one round in an Action Phase', and to 'Burst-fire weapons' (p 142). A Single Shot weapon is clearly neither of these.

Was the coment about 'tremendous recoil' just meaningless fluff that doesn't match the rules, and the point of RC a useless add-on, or is there some other circumstance for recoil that's eluding me?

I asked the same question a while back and there was no clear answer why they chose to include that information about the PC XXL aside from flavor.

PS - Welcome to Dumpshock but your search-fu is weak!
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mfb
post Jun 9 2006, 05:07 PM
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it's so obvious. the reason the PAC has RC is so that you can dual-wield them. dual recoil still stacks in SR4, right?
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Lagomorph
post Jun 9 2006, 05:31 PM
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QUOTE (mfb)
it's so obvious. the reason the PAC has RC is so that you can dual-wield them. dual recoil still stacks in SR4, right?

lol, I was gonna say the exact same thing.

You beat me to the punchline mfb
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Shrike30
post Jun 9 2006, 05:39 PM
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I always figured that the SS rate of fire was part of the "tremendous recoil." The weapon's design and imagery seems to indicate that it's semiautomatic, so the ROF being SS, in my opinion, is referencing the amount of time it takes to recover from the recoil.

It's like the old Salavette Guardian being able to fire bursts as a Complex Action. It's not that the cyclic ROF on the gun is appallingly slow, it's that the gun walks up real fast on burst, and takes a sec to get back on target.
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Nim
post Jun 9 2006, 06:12 PM
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QUOTE (Shrike30)
I always figured that the SS rate of fire was part of the "tremendous recoil." The weapon's design and imagery seems to indicate that it's semiautomatic, so the ROF being SS, in my opinion, is referencing the amount of time it takes to recover from the recoil.

It's like the old Salavette Guardian being able to fire bursts as a Complex Action. It's not that the cyclic ROF on the gun is appallingly slow, it's that the gun walks up real fast on burst, and takes a sec to get back on target.

Huh! Actually, that's a great explanation. It's an SA weapon with a recoil penalty of -Infinity :)

Of course, if it had been statted that way, a character would be able to blow Edge to Longshot a second attack....
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NightHaunter
post Jun 10 2006, 11:45 AM
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Not in my game.
You are not rolling for longshot when your barrel is pointed at the sky. The combat would be over by the time that shot lands!
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Kalvan
post Jun 10 2006, 04:32 PM
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In my game, shooting a Panther improperly braced (without say, a tripod or a gyromount) deals 5P damage (and possibly breaks one's shoulder) to any idiot stupid enough to try it. No piece of cyberware (other than a gyromount), bioware, spell, or adept power will bypass this.
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Tarantula
post Jun 10 2006, 04:42 PM
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How about titanium bone lacing or bone density enhanced players? Does being an elf/human make them take more damage than an orc/troll?
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Fresno Bob
post Jun 10 2006, 05:03 PM
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So, firing an assault cannon deals actual, physical damage, equivalent to being shot with a pistol?
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Austere Emancipa...
post Jun 10 2006, 05:17 PM
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Obviously a Panther AC is basically like a 57mm AT gun. You can tell by the fact that it weighs more than a troll, fires HE ammunition that weighs 5kg per cartridge and has a much larger area of effect than grenade launcher rounds, has an effective range of more than 4 kilometers, and automatically kills any metahuman it hits without any rolling necessary.
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