VR?, is it worth it if your normally fast? Options Track this topic Email this topic Print this topic Download this topic Subscribe to this forum Display Modes Switch to: Outline Switch to: Standard Linear+

[Shinobi Killfist]

As I understand it cold sim VR gives you reflexes+intuition(reaction) +1 extra initiative pass. AR you use your ordinary initiative, but it you have wired reflexes 1 or synaptic booster 1 wouldn't you be going the same speed, so it seems there would be no reason for a boosted/wired hacker to use cold sim.

Hot sim gives you 2 extra passes and +1 to your reaction, so if you had wired 2/synaptic booster 2 you'd be just as fast and the only benefit to hot sim would be the +2 dice to all computer tests. Solid benefit but maybe not worth the risk if you got the meat speed.

Am I reading this right?

If so, I say AR all the way with a bit of meat speed.

[Serbitar]

broken rules

It is said several times that VR is "speed of thought". no meatbody can ever be faster than speed of thought., especially in a logic based environment like the matrix where physical reflexes are irrelevant and thinking is key.

[Glayvin34]

[Shinobi Killfist]

Ok so I was reading it right. It doesn't bother me much, quite frankly I think speed of thought is highly over rated in comics/fantasy etc. Most poeple just don't think that much faster than they can move, especially if there trained in the form of movement there thinking about.(round about way of saying poeple/ all people are dumb) :D

[Divine Virus]

The key point is not how fast you can think, but the speed between when you intend to think and the thought occurs.

[Toptomcat]

Intention is a kind of thought.

[Divine Virus]

That is highly debatabe, but also not what I ment.

Lets say you want to do somthing like lifting your arm. there is a delay between when you decided to do it. How long is the delay between when you decided to think and that thought occurs?

[Samaels Ghost]

SR3 stresses that hacking/manipulating the Matrix is done via visual representation/interpretations of computer processes. I'm not sure how this translates into AR. Also I remember reading that there is a sort of subjective time phenominon where Matrix actions may seem to take much longer than actual gametime (like walking down a virtual street may seem to take a few minutes while in RL it happens in a simple action or 1.5 seconds depending on howmany IPs you have)

I'm pretty sure the same subjective time phenomenon still applies.

[hobgoblin]

i think the real issue is that you can in theory get more actions with wired reflexes and AR then you can with VR+hot-sim. and at the same time your more or less immune to the effects of black programs. and by the looks of it there are no explisit rules for black programs blocking your ability to go from VR to AR quickly.

about the only place where VR is more effective then AR is when you try to break into a node using probing rather then brute force. other then that AR is often on par, if not slighty ahead, of VR.

[Divine Virus]

Personally I don't beleive that wired Relfexes, snyapic boosters, and magic affect IP while in VR or AR.

[Eyeless Blond]

Why wouldn't they? How is moving your body to respond to AR different from moving your body to respond to physical objects? That's as silly as the old SR3 rules that your Wired Reflexes somehow cease to function the moment you grab a steering wheel or, even worse, get in a car where someone *else* is using the steering wheel.

[ornot]

[Teulisch]

actualy... AR uses your normal combat initive. VR uses you matrix sim initive, for hot, cold, or technomancer.

Cold VR is 2 IP. Hot VR or a normal technomancer is 3 IP. 4 IP is a technomancer who has submerged, and chosen the higher IP ability.

In AR however... all you have is the computer screen (in your cybereyes if needed), and the keyboard. So how fast you can type becomes important. If you have reflexes boosted to where you get 3+ IP, then there no reason to ever use VR. its mechanicaly inferior, and more dangerous.

Look on page 230. It shows thr difference between AR, and VR. now, the specific wording is that AR uses 'meat-body speeds', and "you can choose between interacting with teh physical world or the matrix with each action". that 'each action' part implies that i can use all 4 IP from wired 3 and use it to deal with the matrix.

The problem here is that it is a considerable change from the SR3 matrix speeds, and rewards hackers who get wired reflexes instead of using hot sim, by making them immune to teh worst of black IC. Also, the exact wording could be read teh other way around- that you only get 1 matrix action a turn at AR speed.

But then, hacking at AR speed is more important now, as the hacker MUST go on the run with the team most times, and VR would leave your meat vunerable in a gunfight. So noot risking IC in this case means risking real bullets instead.

In the end, we have a situation that needs a house rule to clarify it, at least until the matrix book comes out.

[Aaron]

I remember reading somewhere that an AR user may only make one Matrix action per Combat Turn, but I don't remember if that was in the BBB or on DS.

[Glayvin34]

Personally, I think an important aspect of this is the Initiative passes only apply to cybercombat. If you have Wired Reflexes 3, it still takes a days in AR to Exploit your way into a node, and you don't get the +2 for Hot Sim. Wired Reflexes/ Synaptic Booster/ Increase Reflexes really doesn't affect anything in the Matrix besides how fast you can put in commands during combat in AR, and the fact that you can do meat combat actions during your turn.

So what it really does, as Teulicsh says, is make your Hacker actually useful in meat combat while he is doing cybercombat at the same time. I guess that's a change for SR3, is it bad?

[Eyeless Blond]

[Samaels Ghost]

Not bad... Our Hacker is the best shot in the party, an incredible medic (with those Logic boosters he's good at more than just healing), and he's a spectacular hacker. While he does Probe the Target in VR, if he is ever caught he quickly (Simple action) switches back to AR.

That +2 Hot Sim doesn't do that much if you're already a good Hacker, which you should be, unless it's a secondary skill.

And Speed can be far more important than skill. IPs are super important.

[Samaels Ghost]

My point earlier was that AR doesn't seem to conform to the metaphor like processing that computers had been designed as for so long. If matrix time can be subjective but you're experiencing the realworld at the same time (AR hacking while shooting) can you really make sense of waht you're doing in AR Matrix? Wouldn't it be like watching a movie in fast forward?

How does the AR Matrix sensory metaphors affect you while fighting RL? Are you experiencing both the sights and sounds of the Matrix AND RL at the same time? I know you can sense VR and RL at the same time with a -6 modifier, but what about AR? The Matrix in AR isn't code, it's another world with all types of objects, walls, and personas. I know that there is a side bar that reminds you of how obtrusive AR can be (with possible mods to actions and perceptions) but what about to AR actions? Using meat-body speeds doesn't seem to be enough of a hinderince

I don't think that AR mixes with the Matrix as it was envisioned before...

[hobgoblin]

nah, AR is more of the destop system we have today, floating in mid-air :P

and going aR with trodes or a jack and you can in theory pass commands without moving. i just wish there was a seperate speed list for some actions outside of matrix combat, like say bumping the search times when your in AR so that it will take longer (1 turn for same device, 1 min for same network, 1 hour for entire matrix).

that would be consistent with the probe target diffrence i think...

one thing you can do tho is that when there is matrix combat between two people, the person using hot VR should go before the person not doing so on a initiative tie.

[Samaels Ghost]

[Brahm]

[Serbitar]

VR: brain - matrix
AR: brain - body - matrix

AR wired-3: 4 IPs +3 Initiative
hot VR: 3 IPs +1 Initiative

broken

how can your body plus your brain be faster than just your brain? Especially in 100% logic oriented tasks like computer/hacking ?

there is nothing to argue about

My house rule (from SHP): An AR hacker can only take an AR action in IP 1, a meat body driver can only take a driving action in IP 1. The rest of the actions he can spend doing something else.

Edit: +3 Ini instead of +6. Still playing some SR3 . . .

[Samaels Ghost]

[Serbitar]

Was thinking SR3, sorry, edited

[kigmatzomat]

I don't see what the big deal is. The guy with VR gets away with using trodes. The other guy had major invasive surgery and he *has* to interface with AR physically (keyboard or AR gloves) or else it won't apply. This means he doesn't just space out, his hands spasm and jerk as he manipulates the AR interfaces. Subtle it is not.


Cold VR + trodes = Essence Loss 0, risk of stun damage
AR + Wires 1: Essence loss 2, 11kY, no potential matrix injury

Hot VR + trodes = Essence loss 0, risk of physical injury
AR + Wires 2: Essence loss 3, 32kY, no potential matrix injury

AR + Wires 3: Essence loss 5, 100kY, no potential matrix injury


Plus, by the RAW, if someone is using the slow infiltration technique that takes hours they are not penalized by using AR. So deckers should switch between AR and cold/hot VR depending on the time sensitivity of the task.