Shadow Income, How much is too much? Options

[Samaels Ghost]

Does anyone have guidelines on how much runners (Begining, medium karma, and beyond) should be getting? I think I saturated the group with too much nuyen and now they've got everything they want (except those blasted Foci. I make them wait forever for those to arrive). The character advancement seemed to go far too fast for the cybered characters. Now they're bored with slow and none too rewarding karma advancement. To an extent I know that is the nature of karma, the slow advancement, but that's beside the point...

How much nuyen is too much nuyen? I'm not handing out millions here, but there's stilll a lot out there now.

[Nim]

A place to look for one perspective on this would be the SR Missions adventures. Those all seem to have a variable payoff (and threat level) based on the average karma of the PCs. You could compare the difficulty of their runs to what you've got going, and scale your rewards off of theirs.

[X-Kalibur]

Cyber characters will almost always advance faster than magic characters because nuyen typically comes faster than karma. However, Cyber characters will eventually hit a wall whereas magic characters have only the sky as the limit. In the start this can make things seem imba, by the end, its imba the other direction. Usually in the middle (lets face it, where most runners die) its about even.

However, to ease your mind, if you look at the pre-generated scenarios they have on the Shadowrun site you'll notice that runners typically get around 5000 after completion of the mission, not including expenses. (something like 2000 base + (TR x 2000) with net successes in negotiation raising by 500 each per runner) and usually a 1000 nuyen advance/signing bonus if you will.

And remember, ALWAYS be wary of high advances... usually means they are planning to off you in a set-up :rotate:

[Toptomcat]

Somebody has a sig around here that sums it up quite nicely. It goes something like "Face it, no one is going to shadowrun for less money then they could get by stealing a car once a month and having the group troll negotiate the sale to a chop shop."

[Geekkake]

Too much money is much easier to fix than too much Karma. For money, just start taking things away from them. Their car explodes. A combat they get into causes some 'ware to break and need costly, surgical repair. The team hideout is hit by a big, big missile.

Once you've got them to a reasonable level (for me, this is "continuous, insurmountable debt"), you can justify lower run reward prices by manipulating the local shadow market. Maybe they started running during a boom that's recently ended, leaving things normal again.

[Samaels Ghost]

I always think that my reward is somewaht balanced then they go and rob/loot the corpse of every NPC involved. THe fenced valuables sometimes surpass the mission loot.

[Geekkake]

[Samaels Ghost]

as far as 30% value yes.

My runner's are never too concerned about Noteriety

[stevebugge]

This topic comes up a lot, and their isn't much agreement on an actual number. I have a system I use, which works for me (a search on the topic of runner pay would probably find it) but a lot of people felt was too low. Getting the right compensation is sort of a matter of trial and error and also group preference. If people in the group are bored and ready to quit that's a good indication that it may be time to put the game on hold for a minute and have everyone discuss their expectations and come to a consensus on what is reasonable.

[Teulisch]

well, there are several SR books with a lot of info on what runenrs get paid. In one case, the explain that a johnson lowballs you at 80% of what a job should pay, and is under orders from above not to go over 125% no matter what. Sometimes they pay in gear instead of cash.

Thing is, how a johnson works will depend a lot on if hes corperate, political, criminal, or some other independant. And it also determines what he is going to think is a fair amount of pay.

Overall, i think its best to pay the runners enough to afford their lifestyle and basic costs, or they can get a lower lifestyle and save up for better gear. IF you pay a team 5,000 :nuyen: per runner, then they can either live at middle, or at low with a decent profit. Keep in mind, some of those guys are going to want high lifestyle. Now think about who gets a cut of the johnsons money- does the fixer get a percentage or a finders fee?

I would say, take the money in the SR3 companion, where it lists most jobs from 1,000 to 5,000. multiply by (number of runners+enemys rating). so a 5-man team going against an average rating 3 opposition (predicted niot actual) should get 1,600 to 8,000 each for that run, with a median pay rate of about 3,200. a good rep should improve that even more. some noteriety may hurt (failed to complete mission) while some may help (brutal thugs? heres some wetwork).

The factors to consider, for the GM, is where is the money coming from? is it supplied by the johnsons organization, or is it from a personal account? And even if the adept face did get 20 hits on his negotiation test, there is a very finite limit to the funding availible.

[Serbitar]

[ShadowDragon8685]

The way I see it is that :nuyen: :nuyen: :nuyen: should be easy-come, easy-go. Sure you can get a lot and a lot of cool toys, but the corps will always have more toys. And remember, if you're risking it, you can break your toys.

When gear starts breaking, they get paranoid about actually using that money on more toys. Personally, I'd encourage them to use :nuyen: on things other than bigger and better guns. Do personal things, expand your character, maybe take some time playing Mr. Johnson yourself. Upgrade your lifestyle, take time detailing exactly where you live and stuff. Tell me about your hobbeys - do you collect 2045 edition Ares Predators because that was the first production run? Maybe you use your :nuyen: to buy trid artwork? Maybe you waste it on Awakened wines and asian elf courtesans. Or else cheap beer and cheap ass, and lots of both?

Maybe you funnel it into things you believe are right? Send a wad of c-bills back to your little sister in BumFuck, New Jersey. Go on a climbing holiday, or something.

Shadowrunners aren't just adventuring machines like a D&D adventuring group. Very few Run for the thrill of the Run, and those are the guys I woulden't wanna Run with. Sure it may be exciting, but you also stand a good chance of getting killed. If all you do with your copious :nuyen: is funneling it into toys, then you need to re-examine your life.

That, or you're a Rigger.

[Samaels Ghost]

Thank you Serbitar and others. The Serbitar guides and resources are awesome BTW. Kudos on that!

I've been grossly over paying my runners.

[X-Kalibur]

[Nim]

As far as the looting goes, I think it depends. Just about any team of runners will happily pick up unrelated paydata that they find during the course of a run, for instance. And if the guards are better armed than you are, or the security mage has some tasty foci, then it makes sense to grab some souveniers and I doubt anyone would look down on that...though security weapons should all be highly traceable, with embedded transmitters, and the runners will need to take precautions against that.

On the other side of the coin, stripping the opposition bare of every piece of salable gear and backing up your van to the loading dock to cart it off is tacky. Especially when it's gear that's commonplace for runners of your renown.

If the Big Bad Shadowrunners cram their pockets with all of the rent-a-cops' cheap 9mms, people will start to question how good they really are at their jobs, that they need to go to that much effort for a small payoff.

[Samaels Ghost]

the thing is that Comms and what not a are common place. though individually they dont cost much, looting everybody adds up quick. add jewelry, accessories and others and you can definetly make upto the meager wages usually suggested for most jobs (in the 2000-8000 range)

[ShadowDragon8685]

Well, I see two schools of thought on that. You can either have Mr. Johnson pay extra for a no-looting run, or hound them so hotly they don't have time.


Really though, I woulden't be pissed if they scooped up extra comlinks on the way out. Most of them would be crappy rating 1s across the board. Hardly worth selling. Occasionally they'll find a gemstone. If they're taking the time to loot the guards' Fichetti Securities, they obviously feel they're not getting enough money. If they're scooping unrelated paydata or something that looks like a valuable prototype, that's perfectly understandable. They are, after all, in the middle of commiting felonies for money - what's a little extra Grand Larceny?

[Nim]

[ShadowDragon8685]

Screw that, Nim.

Shadowrunners are looking out for themselves, first and foremost. They don't exist as a black-ops team for hire, they're guys and gals of exceptional talent who can't or won't hold a legal job, and who want to make good for themselves.

They're out for :nuyen: , first and foremost. Screw professionalism. It dosen't (usually) interfere with the job to swipe stray comlinks on the way in or our. When it does, that's a problem; if it does not, no problem.

[Butterblume]

[Lagomorph]

I always felt that shadowrunners should be well paid. Why would you choose a job that risks your life every day unless the income was something that you could say "yeah, just 50 more runs and I can retire in the carib league".

That being said, not all adventures a group has is a run with pay. Often times they're very low pay favors, freebies, pro bono work, or just being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

[Demon_Bob]

From What I read of the Shadowrun Missions they start at 10K :nuyen: with bonuses and chances for extra income along the way. With a run every week or so. Although this seems just a little low, personally I like to double the payout, but increase costs.

As far as looting goes, a little should be ok. Quick grabs of weapons, comlinks, and other relatively small items should be fine.

As far as large big ticket items are concerned remember that Stealth Tags are 5 :nuyen: for 20 with a signal of 5.

If the equipment was owned by a legit company. The question the runners need to ask is it they can get the loot discreetly to a wireless dead zone, before the Corp reports it stolen and offers the police a donation for it's recovery, if the equipment is worth the companies time and effort.

3rd had suggestions about coverting karma into cash. Was wondering if anyone thought exchanging 5K :nuyen: for 1 Karma saeemed ok.

[Tiger Eyes]

[Red]

Opinions on looting vary from campaign to campaign. In some campaigns with some GMs, looting is frowned upon. In exchange the GM sort of informally agrees to see to it that the party is paid well enough upon success that rampant looting isn't necessary. Players and GMs both have to come to an understanding on nuyen/karma progression. 90% of the trick to "leveling up" is purely the management of expectation.

In Geekake's campaign he enforces a very gritty and resource corrosive environment. I never expect to hold on to too much money for too long. After a big payday, we regularly lose large sums of nuyen to "Murphy-Geekake's Law of **** Happens." Thus far our group (specifically, me) has looted almost 50 commlinks. Why? Not for cash. Setting up a secure commlink network for a team requires a lot of commlinks. Even if they aren't high grade, it adds up cost wise. We didn't take them to make money as much as to avoid having to spend money on them in the future.

So I have to make an OOC effort to point out, "Hey, I want to go for this item which costs X in the future." That way they know when you are building towards something, and when you are just hoarding.

[Shinobi Killfist]

the only adventure for 4e I'm aware of gives 10kwith if done right a 5k bonus at the end, so lets say 5 runners you do it right 3k a piece. Not bad considering it is a fairly low threat adventure. Still how many runs a month do people expect runners to do I think 1 to 2. So you make a low lifestyle to maybe a medium lifestyle off of the low end low threat runs. Which seems about right to me.

I basically would say, begining runners can make enough to maintain a low lifestyle with ease or scrape by at medium.(1-2 runs a month equalling about 5 rgeand)

Experienced but not prime runners can make medium lifestyle easily or scrape by at a high lifestyle.(1-2 runs a month equaling about 10 grand)

Prime runners make a high lifestyle. (1-2 runbs a month easily making over 10 grand a month but probably not close to the 100,000 a month of a luxury life style maybe 25-50 grand)