Character Creation: Skill Groups Question |
Character Creation: Skill Groups Question |
Jun 21 2006, 04:57 PM
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#1
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Target Group: Members Posts: 1 Joined: 25-November 03 Member No.: 5,844 |
Hi everyone, I am about to begin a Shadowrun 4th edition campaign for the first time. While reading the core rule book on character creation, there is an issue about skills and skill groups that was not clarified properly. According to the rules, a player can spend karma points during the campaign so as to increase a single skill that previously belonged to a skill group that now "breaks". Can the same thing be done during character creation? For instance, let's say that a magician spends 40 points to the Sorcery skill group to 4, then wants to "break" the skill group and raise Spellcasting on its own to 6, spending an additional 8 points. Do you think this is feasible during character creation? Is there any official FAQ or errata that clarifies this? |
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Jun 21 2006, 05:00 PM
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#2
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 475 Joined: 13-March 06 From: dusty Mexican borderlands Member No.: 8,372 |
No, sir! And curse you for even thinking it!
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Jun 21 2006, 05:01 PM
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#3
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 371 Joined: 10-January 06 From: Regina Member No.: 8,145 |
The RAW are silent on this but I have ruled: no. For game balance reasons.
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Jun 21 2006, 06:01 PM
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#4
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
i think the general consensus has been that there is nothing explicitly saying you can't, but the examples seem to suggest it was intended that you cannot.
most people seem to feel it was the designer's intent to make it so you could not do it, but ultimately you will have to decide for your own game (i say no, you can't, because it just feels like violating the spirit of the law in favor of the letter of the law). |
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Jun 21 2006, 06:54 PM
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#5
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 371 Joined: 10-January 06 From: Regina Member No.: 8,145 |
I think that's the theme of SR4. |
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Jun 21 2006, 06:57 PM
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#6
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
LOL. I think many woul disagree, but you're entitled to your opinions. :)
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Jun 21 2006, 07:19 PM
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#7
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,026 Joined: 23-November 05 From: Seattle (Really!) Member No.: 7,996 |
Spirits of the Law: Anyone got stats for those? :silly:
I would put in another vote for the "breaking skill groups can only be done after character creation" camp though I cannot cite any canon for that either. I lean towards game balance for disallowing it also, that and it was not done in any of the sample characters (though using those as precedent is dangerous considering the number of corrections they received in the errata) |
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Jun 21 2006, 07:21 PM
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#8
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 244 Joined: 8-June 06 Member No.: 8,681 |
Watch out for their 'Locate Loophole' power. It can cause problems when players summon a high-force spirit and have them activate and sustain the power for the duration of the session. |
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Jun 21 2006, 08:40 PM
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#9
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,150 Joined: 19-December 05 From: Rhein-Ruhr Megaplex Member No.: 8,081 |
I want to put in a vote for "breaking up skillgroups can also be done at chargen" ;).
I allow it for my players, I think it isn't really that abusable. It's imo a good way to have a more rounded (and logical) char at generation. And, after all, why should I compel a player to get a few points of karma before he can break up a group in play. Only 2 of 6 players of mine used this option. |
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Jun 21 2006, 09:21 PM
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#10
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 399 Joined: 27-May 04 Member No.: 6,361 |
I go with the ability to break up skills at character gen. Most of my players use it, and its not possed any so called game balance issues... And neither group has begun uber in any way related to skills. Then again, I use a Modified SeCKSY set up so that kinda take care of itself. Go exponentially increasing karma costs!
Game balance in SR is theoretical in the first place. |
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Jun 21 2006, 10:19 PM
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#11
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 475 Joined: 13-March 06 From: dusty Mexican borderlands Member No.: 8,372 |
Amen to that. Don't like the char's twinking decision? Drop a cow on him. |
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Jun 22 2006, 12:50 AM
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#12
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Target Group: Members Posts: 27 Joined: 4-June 06 Member No.: 8,643 |
Reading the paragraph on upgrading skill groups on p. 264 would lead me to believe you weren't meant to take one and then upgrade a skill individually, since when you upgrade one you no longer have a skill group, but 3-4 separate skills again. I don't see how you could have a starting character with say automatics 3, longarms 3, and pistols 5 and say you gave that character a skill group at character creation when there's no skill group there.
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Jun 22 2006, 01:46 AM
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#13
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Jacked In, Up & Out Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 232 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Oceanside, CA Member No.: 95 |
Here's an example of why I think you should be able to do it at chargen:
Say I want to make a mage, a banishing expert, who is also okay at the rest of the spirit area. So, the end result desired is banishing 6, summoning 3 and binding 2. Without skillgroups, this would cost 6x4 plus 3x4, plus 2x4, for a total of 44 With skill groups, this would cost 2x10 (conjuring skill group), plus 4x4 (banishing to 6), plus 1x4 (summoning to 3) for a total cost of 40. This saves a total of 4 build points, which is not a huge amount. However, if you don't allow skill group breaking at chargen, a min/maxer might just say to heck with the banishing at 6, and make a character with the conjuring skill group at 4, for a total cost of 40, which gets him a 4 skill in each (binding, summoning, and banishing) Sure, he can't quite banish as well, but he can definitely summon and bind much better, so the end result is a more powerful character, for less build points, and one that might not be quite as interesting as a banishing expert could be. So, my opinion is to reward 'interesting' characters with slightly more build points, and this would be one way to do it. Same thing with the other thread about phobias. All players might not be so inclined to make interesting characters if there aren't some incentives to do so. Some would, but some won't, and with the incentives, more people will, thus making for a more interesting game. Just my opinion, of course... Dave Edit: fixed a typo in the math |
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Jun 22 2006, 01:54 AM
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#14
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
A banishing expert (espcially with banishing at 6) is going to be a comparatively weak character with almost any generation system.
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Jun 22 2006, 03:01 AM
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#15
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 399 Joined: 27-May 04 Member No.: 6,361 |
About as much as a Counterspelling Expert. Some players seek to fill an unforeseen niche, which makes them so awesome in play. It may seem weak, but the moment theres an enemy spirit or a spell being tossed about he is king.
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Jun 22 2006, 04:04 AM
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#16
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
a banishing expert = a spellcasting mage with a force 12 stunbolt available and high magic/spellcasting.
better than trying to banish them and suffer the drain for that, which could potentially be crazy huge, at any rate. |
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Jun 22 2006, 04:57 AM
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#17
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 560 Joined: 4-March 06 From: Pueblo Corporate Council Member No.: 8,332 |
Build Points aren't spent consecutively, they're spent simultaneously. In other words, you're not building up a person from birth - he jumps off the page fully formed. So you look at the skill ratings you've chosen, and total up the points that they cost.
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Jun 22 2006, 08:43 AM
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#18
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 831 Joined: 5-September 05 From: LAX, UCAS Member No.: 7,687 |
Which makes no sense if you view character creation as a more holistic endeavor rather than an exercise in crunching numbers. |
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Jun 22 2006, 12:13 PM
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#19
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Jacked In, Up & Out Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 232 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Oceanside, CA Member No.: 95 |
Well, yes, that might be the best way mechanics wise, but often, the best mechanics way does not equal the best for character "interestingness" Dave |
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Jun 22 2006, 12:43 PM
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#20
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 502 Joined: 14-May 03 From: Detroit, Michigan Member No.: 4,583 |
I'd allow it.
From a background development idea it works out fine. To use the banishing example: Character X went to school and learned conjuring skill group for a few years. Character X left school and got a job banishing spirits. Character X concentrated on banishing skill from conjuring skill group for the next few years. Character X accidentally banishes his bosses ally spirit, is fired, ditches his SIN, and becomes a shadowrunner. |
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Jun 22 2006, 01:36 PM
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#21
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 984 Joined: 15-June 06 Member No.: 8,717 |
Where can rules for Ally spirits be found?
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Jun 22 2006, 01:38 PM
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#22
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
Nowhere in SR4. IIRC they're in Magic in the Streets in SR3 (although I may be confusing the book name with it's SR1 or 2 counterpart).
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Jun 22 2006, 02:47 PM
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#23
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Awakened Asset Group: Members Posts: 4,464 Joined: 9-April 05 From: AGS, North German League Member No.: 7,309 |
Word on the german fanpro-forum has it that it should be allowed, but is up to the gamemaster to decide. Unfortunately a better answer (as in decisive) is not available so far.
The chargen rules as written allow for buying groups or skills, but not for improving them (my viewpoint). The few saved points are hardy worthy of group conflict though. Hopefully the FAQ will be provide a clear decision. |
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Jun 22 2006, 03:24 PM
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#24
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 244 Joined: 8-June 06 Member No.: 8,681 |
I think that's Magic in the Shadows, James.
I understand what they were going for with the skill groups, and it makes sense, but I have to admit that it bugs me that it's possible to have two characters with EXACTLY THE SAME SKILLS, yet they paid different costs for them because of the order in which they bought them. It makes going back and sanity-checking a character 20 sessions down the road a pain in the ass. |
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Jun 22 2006, 03:29 PM
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#25
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
With or without skill groups that's impossible unless you have a copy of their original character sheet. A character with unarmed 5 and pistols 5 after 20 sessions could have bought them from scratch after chargen, bought them completely at chargen, or anything in between. If you've got a copy of that first character it doesn't make it any harder to sanity check characters that used groups vs. characters that didn't, because the info will be at your fingertips.
The primary effect of allowing upgrading of skill groups during character generation is probably a larger percentage of generalists. Depending on your viewpoint, this is either a good or bad thing. I think most would call it good, but some don't like systems that reward what is viewed as overgeneralization. |
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