Hi everyone,

I am about to begin a Shadowrun 4th edition campaign for the first time. While reading the core rule book on character creation, there is an issue about skills and skill groups that was not clarified properly.

According to the rules, a player can spend karma points during the campaign so as to increase a single skill that previously belonged to a skill group that now "breaks".

Can the same thing be done during character creation? For instance, let's say that a magician spends 40 points to the Sorcery skill group to 4, then wants to "break" the skill group and raise Spellcasting on its own to 6, spending an additional 8 points.

Do you think this is feasible during character creation? Is there any official FAQ or errata that clarifies this?

No, sir! And curse you for even thinking it!

The RAW are silent on this but I have ruled: no. For game balance reasons.

i think the general consensus has been that there is nothing explicitly saying you can't, but the examples seem to suggest it was intended that you cannot.

most people seem to feel it was the designer's intent to make it so you could not do it, but ultimately you will have to decide for your own game (i say no, you can't, because it just feels like violating the spirit of the law in favor of the letter of the law).

LOL. I think many woul disagree, but you're entitled to your opinions.

Spirits of the Law: Anyone got stats for those?

I would put in another vote for the "breaking skill groups can only be done after character creation" camp though I cannot cite any canon for that either. I lean towards game balance for disallowing it also, that and it was not done in any of the sample characters (though using those as precedent is dangerous considering the number of corrections they received in the errata)

I want to put in a vote for "breaking up skillgroups can also be done at chargen" .

I allow it for my players, I think it isn't really that abusable. It's imo a good way to have a more rounded (and logical) char at generation. And, after all, why should I compel a player to get a few points of karma before he can break up a group in play.

Only 2 of 6 players of mine used this option.

I go with the ability to break up skills at character gen. Most of my players use it, and its not possed any so called game balance issues... And neither group has begun uber in any way related to skills. Then again, I use a Modified SeCKSY set up so that kinda take care of itself. Go exponentially increasing karma costs!

Game balance in SR is theoretical in the first place.

Reading the paragraph on upgrading skill groups on p. 264 would lead me to believe you weren't meant to take one and then upgrade a skill individually, since when you upgrade one you no longer have a skill group, but 3-4 separate skills again. I don't see how you could have a starting character with say automatics 3, longarms 3, and pistols 5 and say you gave that character a skill group at character creation when there's no skill group there.

Here's an example of why I think you should be able to do it at chargen:

Say I want to make a mage, a banishing expert, who is also okay at the rest of the spirit area.

So, the end result desired is banishing 6, summoning 3 and binding 2.

Without skillgroups, this would cost 6x4 plus 3x4, plus 2x4, for a total of 44

With skill groups, this would cost 2x10 (conjuring skill group), plus 4x4 (banishing to 6), plus 1x4 (summoning to 3) for a total cost of 40.

This saves a total of 4 build points, which is not a huge amount. However, if you don't allow skill group breaking at chargen, a min/maxer might just say to heck with the banishing at 6, and make a character with the conjuring skill group at 4, for a total cost of 40, which gets him a 4 skill in each (binding, summoning, and banishing) Sure, he can't quite banish as well, but he can definitely summon and bind much better, so the end result is a more powerful character, for less build points, and one that might not be quite as interesting as a banishing expert could be.

So, my opinion is to reward 'interesting' characters with slightly more build points, and this would be one way to do it. Same thing with the other thread about phobias. All players might not be so inclined to make interesting characters if there aren't some incentives to do so. Some would, but some won't, and with the incentives, more people will, thus making for a more interesting game. Just my opinion, of course...

Dave

Edit: fixed a typo in the math

A banishing expert (espcially with banishing at 6) is going to be a comparatively weak character with almost any generation system.

About as much as a Counterspelling Expert. Some players seek to fill an unforeseen niche, which makes them so awesome in play. It may seem weak, but the moment theres an enemy spirit or a spell being tossed about he is king.

a banishing expert = a spellcasting mage with a force 12 stunbolt available and high magic/spellcasting.

better than trying to banish them and suffer the drain for that, which could potentially be crazy huge, at any rate.

Build Points aren't spent consecutively, they're spent simultaneously. In other words, you're not building up a person from birth - he jumps off the page fully formed. So you look at the skill ratings you've chosen, and total up the points that they cost.

I'd allow it.

From a background development idea it works out fine. To use the banishing example:

Character X went to school and learned conjuring skill group for a few years.
Character X left school and got a job banishing spirits.
Character X concentrated on banishing skill from conjuring skill group for the next few years.
Character X accidentally banishes his bosses ally spirit, is fired, ditches his SIN, and becomes a shadowrunner.

Where can rules for Ally spirits be found?

Nowhere in SR4. IIRC they're in Magic in the Streets in SR3 (although I may be confusing the book name with it's SR1 or 2 counterpart).

Word on the german fanpro-forum has it that it should be allowed, but is up to the gamemaster to decide. Unfortunately a better answer (as in decisive) is not available so far.

The chargen rules as written allow for buying groups or skills, but not for improving them (my viewpoint). The few saved points are hardy worthy of group conflict though. Hopefully the FAQ will be provide a clear decision.

I think that's Magic in the Shadows, James.

I understand what they were going for with the skill groups, and it makes sense, but I have to admit that it bugs me that it's possible to have two characters with EXACTLY THE SAME SKILLS, yet they paid different costs for them because of the order in which they bought them. It makes going back and sanity-checking a character 20 sessions down the road a pain in the ass.

With or without skill groups that's impossible unless you have a copy of their original character sheet. A character with unarmed 5 and pistols 5 after 20 sessions could have bought them from scratch after chargen, bought them completely at chargen, or anything in between. If you've got a copy of that first character it doesn't make it any harder to sanity check characters that used groups vs. characters that didn't, because the info will be at your fingertips.

The primary effect of allowing upgrading of skill groups during character generation is probably a larger percentage of generalists. Depending on your viewpoint, this is either a good or bad thing. I think most would call it good, but some don't like systems that reward what is viewed as overgeneralization.

Can you buy skill groups up with karma?

Skill groups enhance the "basic knowledge" of characters, no doubt. SR2 accomplished the same thing by using skills like "firearms". SR3 split many core skills up to allow for skill set diversity. SR4 is a good compromise, as both "number crunching" by selecting only needed parts and "reality gaming" by simulating probable skillsets are possible.

Alltough I´m in the camp of "not allowed, therefore forbidden", permitting the splitting of groups at chargen improves the diversity of chars whithout overwhelming potential for misuse.

Sanity-checking can´t be recalculating, as costs differ between chargen and char improvment.

Hmmm i've had the very same thought as the original post when i was making my guys for the first time. Not only that but i also thought you should be able to replace some of the skills in a group. Like instead of taking firearms group and getting auto,long, and pistols, you could take heavy weapons, thorwing weapons, and exotic long ranged weapons.

I dont see how skill swappage or group breaking would affect gameplay at all. When you raise individual skills your paying MORE points this should negate any feeling of unbalancing something.

The way i read the rules for improving group skills are as follows. Yeah sure go ahead and raise a specific skill for its normal individual cost. However. You will not be able to raise all the skills in a group for the cheaper group rate again until you raise the others individually up to the highest skill in the group.

The only thing they didnt want you to be able to do was raise an individual skill and then raise the group later on like this example:

Firearms (group) (5) auto, long,pistol. Then you spend some karma to raise longarms and have Firearms (group) (5) auto, long (6), pistol. AND THEN try to raise the entire group with karma at the reduced cost. Firearms (group) (6) auto, long(7), pistol.

They werent saying no you cant raise things individually. They were saying you dont get the reduced karma cost unless all the skills in the group are of equal rating.
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And what possable difference could it make to let somebody raise a different set of weapon skills for the same price as somebody else. For example switching out automatics for heavy weapons. Who cares??? The person lost the ability to use automatics. That sounds like enough of a penalty

Why does bob get to work on 3 firearm skills for less karma than Fred just because Fred wants to use different weapons?

I think it is because Heavy weapons isn't generally included or emphasized in training. You're more likely to me trained in common weapons (pistols, riflesand automatic weapon) than the big boys (bazooka, RPG, Heavy machine guns).