 Runner Havens on its way, Will be available for sale at Origins |
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 Jul 14 2006, 10:57 PM
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#126
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Runner  Group: Members Posts: 2,556 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 98  |
I've really been looking forwards to the HK content because I want to get my group OUT of Seattle. Living here, it's easy to settle for a kind of "watered-down-by-the-present" image of the place, and I'm interested in taking a jump to another heavily-developed city in-game.
And I'll admit, I've got a weakness for old John Woo films. |
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Jul 14 2006, 11:40 PM
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#127
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CosaNostra Deliverator Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 346 Joined: 29-January 05 From: Philadelphia, PA Member No.: 7,034 |
I'm planning on running Dreamchipper (updated to 4th edition) for my group. I was flipping through the module and when I looked at the back, I found stats for the current Governor, including program carriers! I knew that name sounded familiar. :) All around awesome work on RH, BTW. |
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Jul 15 2006, 05:39 AM
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#128
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 137 Joined: 8-June 06 From: Present day, Detroit Member No.: 8,683 |
heh, me too. i guess i need to take a look at RH and catch the throwback. |
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Jul 15 2006, 06:12 AM
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#129
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 831 Joined: 5-September 05 From: LAX, UCAS Member No.: 7,687 |
See, this is what I get for not reading every last tidbit of the prior fluff books. ;) My bad.
Why bother directly controling things when the populace is going to give you headaches? Far easier to move behind the scenes (cough...Telestrian...cough) and do the puppet master routine til the peasents are ready to obey again. The Princes have been doing that crap for an entire Age, so what makes a temporary reorganization so stupid?
That's what tasers and a shitload of narcoject is for (not to mention stun spells). Given the bad press Seattle Lonestar has been getting regarding metahuman rights abuses, it's pretty easy to see why they would want to take an obviously criminal meta like Torgo down soft and put him on trial. Makes them look better.
And we all know that the world works exactly the way that people with degrees think it should all the time. It is contractually obligated to, after all. :S I wasn't thrilled by LA, but I didn't hate it either. |
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Jul 15 2006, 06:35 AM
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#130
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 831 Joined: 5-September 05 From: LAX, UCAS Member No.: 7,687 |
Very much so 8) Btw, did you do the Vory section too? If so you're definitely reading my mind. :grinbig: The Seattle campaign I'm running now is set in '69 (wanted to leave room to adapt it to RH), and the team's troll magician adept is a Vory enforcer. She took a Vory boss as a contact so I fleshed him out as one Piotr Rustovich (81, lost his sons in the Eurowars) who I have as the head of the Seattle Vory. His leuitenents include Alexi (a heavily cyber former Russian intelligence agent - calm, cold, and calculating) and Boris (a hot tempered ambitious thug), both human. Anway, the old man is looking to leave a legacy, and intended to retire soon and give control of the syndicate over to Alexi, who he sees somewhat as a surogate son. Which will piss Boris off royally when he gets wind of it. As the storyline progresses, I was going to have Boris kill the old man and frame Alexi and the PC for it (she's been screwing up enough to make Boris see her as a liability) then see where the dice fell as to who would end up in control (as a GM favoring Alexi for the job, and hoping Boris would get geeked). And now comes RH, which has one Aleksander “Terminator” Bilotkiy, a heavily-cybered hatchet man in charge of the Seattle Vory in 2070 :D |
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Jul 15 2006, 06:59 AM
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#131
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 831 Joined: 5-September 05 From: LAX, UCAS Member No.: 7,687 |
Yeah, it's enevitable with the second Crash and the new wireless Matrix. Just nostalgia talking. Gonna miss my Shadowland :(
:eek: You found me out! Remind me though, I've really gotta get on their case and find out why my paychecks aren't rolling in. :P
Doh! Yet another section of a book I didn't bother reading. Naval engagements have never been a big thing in my SR games though ;)
Thank you AH!
Well, I like Dzhugashvili (despite the fact that I can't pronounce her name to save my life) and the idea of an Independance party, but I don't like the idea of Seattle actually succeeding (despite Washington's negligence toward my favorite 'plex). So, I'm gonna have to go with good old Julius (I knew I recognized the name from somewhere ;) ) as my favorite. Besides, having an ex-runner in the big chair is good for biz (in theory). Brackhaven, on the other hand, needs to be shot....many, many times (show you care, say it with sabots ;) ). His Humanis garbage just doesn't fly, since I love my metas. He's kinda someone you love to hate. |
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Jul 15 2006, 07:02 AM
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#132
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 831 Joined: 5-September 05 From: LAX, UCAS Member No.: 7,687 |
I'm trying to ignore that! Despite the fact that I live in Wisconsin, it's just embarassing :oops: |
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Jul 15 2006, 03:35 PM
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#133
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 296 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Usually under a cat Member No.: 864 |
Nope, can't take credit for that one. I did the gangs and most of the Seattle locations (the nightclubs and restaurants and stuff, not the Seattle districts). AH and JWK did all the rest of the Seattle chapter. |
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Jul 16 2006, 12:50 AM
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#134
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Is it just me, or does every new location book feature fewer of the latter? :( BTW, talk about loss of information... what happened to your page and the stories of your current SR4 campaign? |
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Jul 16 2006, 01:59 AM
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#135
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Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
jU-gash-vil-E It's Georgian. And Josef Stalin's family surname. I doubt this is a coincidence. Most Georgian surnames end in -vili or -adze, btw.
I guess DE couldn't convince them to use the name "Viktor Konchin." |
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Jul 16 2006, 07:05 AM
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#136
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,078 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 67 |
Hah, that would have been sweet, but I was so busy with the HK part that I didn't really think to suggest it. ;)
Honestly, the original Seattle Sourcebook read like a AAA Travel Guide with its micro-blurbs on every little thing. We wanted to focus on a decent amount of locations with a bit of depth and include places we're likely to use or reference again somewhere. |
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Jul 16 2006, 10:13 AM
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#137
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Indeed, which made it very useful in mid-game. ;) Runner Havens looks nice, too, but it features less hard facts. Somehow it feels more like an update to old material than a new start... The only thing that rubs me totally the wrong way is the Social Networking thing adapted by the runner "community": Social Networking is an information security nightmare... Profiling, Infiltration and Identity Theft made easy. |
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Jul 16 2006, 03:10 PM
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#138
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Grumpy Old Ork Decker Group: Admin Posts: 3,794 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Orwell, Ohio Member No.: 50 |
Not when it's a closed system. The new "Shadowland" as presented in the books is basically a closed network run by Fastjack. There's a limited number of regular users, and various "guests" will be brought in for certain topics. This was done partly so that FanPro could more easily start developing the Shadowtalk "Cast", IIRC. A specific list of characters for writers to use, rather than what became the norm with hundreds of random "one shot" names and regular insertion of the names of friends. The upside, is that we'll get to know the characters, the way we got to know Hatchetman and the gang back in the day... the downside is that you'll see less of the "Hrmm, lets give these fellow dumpshockers a thrill" type of cameos. Bull |
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Jul 16 2006, 03:51 PM
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#139
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Even/especially then - if you trust the system, you will fall prey to it's abuse. The core problem is within the social network itself: It stores lots of personal data - and connects the dots. RH even goes lengths to explain that this network basically makes you who you are. So your identity has been digitalized and stored, ready to be used or taken over by anyone capable of doing so. Want to impersonate someone after killing him? If he participated in a social network, that saves you lot's of gathering intel. If at all, most runners really concerned with anonymity would have multiple fake accounts, contradicting each other and creating white noise in a sea of information.
Whether you use JackPoints or ShadowSea isn't that important... those networks are open to anyone capable of finding them or being invited - as explained in RH. On the other hand, the community is already huge and has a huge fluctuation, so newcomers are quite normal.
Sure thing, no problem with that... I'm just very cautious concerning IRL social networking services. ;) |
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Jul 16 2006, 04:20 PM
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#140
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,078 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 67 |
In the case of JackPoint, that's not true. JackPoint is not open to anyone capable of finding it, nor is it huge or have a fluctuation of users. JackPoint can be infiltrated, if someone is determined, knows what they are looking for, and has access to the secure passkeys of an invited user. Infiltrating it will not gain you much besides intel, though. You could damage the user's reputation, but given how small and inclusive the community is, that would usually be a surefire way of giving yourself away. You could spread disinformation, but information posted on JackPoint is already considered subjective. You could try to damage the network, but it is distributed and decentralized and even if destroyed, would not stay down very long. |
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Jul 16 2006, 04:31 PM
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#141
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Ok, I stand corrected, 46 Users online isn't that big - does that mean that Joe Average Runner will get the ingame image of the scourcebooks only after they have been dumped somewhere else?
That's what I was worried about. :| |
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Jul 16 2006, 04:52 PM
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#142
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,078 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 67 |
That's up to the GM. The books are written as if the reader is a member of JackPoint (hence the splash screen at the beginning of the books), but that doesn't necessarily mean each player's character is. That is up to how a group's GM wants to disseminate sourcebook info. Setting-wise, though, Joe Average Runner is not a member of JackPoint and may never see the information presented in JackPoint. JackPoint isn't the same sort of democratic system Shadowland was, though more democratic data havens exist in SR4.
In this regard, though, JackPoint is certainly more secure than Shadowland was, given how just about anyone could log into there (including great dragons, immortal elves, etc.). |
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Jul 16 2006, 05:15 PM
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#143
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Sure, but classic data havens likeshadowland lacked the automated networking schemes, so there was less intel to begin with. Just a matter of paranoia. :) |
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Jul 16 2006, 10:18 PM
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#144
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 134 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 1,525 |
The large network of datahavens run by neoanarchists and like-minded groups has been replaced by an exclusive 100-member (ish) cliche of ultra-criminals.
This is actually less secure. The data was never the issue on Shadowland. Paydata usually hit the public boards only after it had lost its selling power, although it is suggested by the intro tone of some of the source books that some paydata did hit Shadowland first and free. It was the case, that one could hide in the volume of Shadowland. Just like anonymous email routers today, it was secure because you were passing through so many logless systems with so many other users that even if the opposition identified one end of your conversation, they could not match your data trail to any of the volume coming out the other side without rooting the blackbox for an extended period of time. Now, all communication is limited to a few users. This means that only a few conversations are going on at any one time. When a user posts, you don't need access to the blackbox to see who made it, you just need to be further down their connection branch and watching the traffic. Set up with even the best security, only a fool would use that network for anything sensitive. Since you can identify which stream has the posting user, you can also pull it offline and crack it with the giant decryption boxes, which would take too long if you were trying to decrypt hundreds of streams to find the one you wanted. Assuming the big-name posters aren't fools, this means the network is simply for common-sense information about locations and players. I doubt the source books will be written this way. But the information isn't even the major issue. Most of the information posted on Shadowland could be browsed. The most secure stuff was exactly as secure as Jackpoint up to the point Captain Chaos decided to post it public. Considering he was one of the best, I'm sure the security implications of posting anything public were not confusing to him. So Jackpoint and Shadowland really have about the same data integrity but Jackpoint doesn't provide the anti-corp resistance service that Shadowland did. Corporations where never interested in the data. The opportunity for disinformation was certainly appreciated and taken advantage of, but the most important thing on Shadowland was user information. Corporate security is not a Keystone Cop outfit. They will find out Jackpoint exists. Once they do, as long as runners want to use it, they have a very convenient way to track the comings and goings of the biggest criminal names in freelance operations. Even if one considers that the best posters take every precaution, there is still a wealth of information. Average posting times, posting trends, what the users is posting about at any given time, and the subjects they browse are all things you don't want corp sec profiling about you, even if they can never 100% locate the address you're logging in from. On Shadowland, corp sec could bring up all your public posts and get some of this information. The dates and times could be altered by the best and often were. On Jackpoint they don't need to rely on the stamp, they have their own dating. Private secure posts were kept secure unless corp sec knew what to target for an intrusion. Breaking into Shadowland was perhaps, on average, a little easier than it is to break into Jackpoint. However, you don't need to break into Jackpoint unless you want something that isn't contained in the posts and stories themselves. While on Shadowland the security force would need to identify that they wanted to find out what you were doing and then figure out where in the matrix you were doing it (which data haven) and then break into that system to find your private communications or postings, on Jackpoint they can afford to just track, decrypt, and store everything that goes across it and watch it. They don't need to figure out that they are interested in any one runner. If a runner's private messages include to many references to an upcoming job, the runner has just politely notified the corp they need to be watched. As stated earlier, Jackpoint cannot be used for sensitive information, even (especially) in an emergency. So, public data slightly more secure on Jackpoint than on Shadowland. Since Shadowland was supposed to be public, this means nothing, really. Private data is far easier to obtain from Jackpoint than it was from Shadowland. So this is lost functionality unless the best shadow runners are idiots who don't realize this, which I assume they are not. Profiling information on Jackpoint is far easier to recover. Overall, Jackpoint is a poor replacement to Shadowland as far as IC reasoning goes. |
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Jul 17 2006, 12:05 PM
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#145
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,266 Joined: 3-June 06 From: UK Member No.: 8,638 |
I've not gotten hold of havens yet, so I've not read about Jackpoint.
I would suggest in response to your comments about the many ways corps could crack Jackpoint and use it, that perhaps Jackpoint is actually sanctioned unofficially by the corps. Paranoid yet? Also, if there are only 100 registered users on Jackpoint, the corps that hack into it to get information on criminal activity only get information on a fraction of users. Is it not within the bounds of possibility that there are many Jackpoint-esque systems about? |
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Jul 17 2006, 03:05 PM
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#146
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
In just a community of 100 highrollers in the 6th World you should still be plenty paranoid. I'm paranoid with the other 3, 4, or 5 PCs around the table and that's even with the metagaming knowledge that they know I'm going to key the player's car if they screw my PC over. :eek: ;)
I haven't read RH yet, so of course I say this with reservations, but this doesn't sound like something that really bothers me much. It sounds more like, in game world terms, something to try filter out some of the bullsh!t noise/spam that I always felt was missing from Shadowland. Without actually missing it. :) More like a private booth in Shadowland. Not unlike some of the conversations that were held between GDs, IEs, and others. You know that one with Jungle Cat and Orange Queen, etc. The details are just escaping me now or I'd pop up a link to it. |
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Jul 17 2006, 03:29 PM
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#147
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 681 Joined: 28-February 06 From: UK Member No.: 8,319 |
If Fastjack set up Jackpoint, I'd say it's pretty safe.
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Jul 17 2006, 04:19 PM
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#148
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Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
Sure. From his end.
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Jul 17 2006, 05:44 PM
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#149
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
I'm going to agree with SL James there. Read SF where Pax and her lackies sleazed into a discussion without being recognized. Although CC eventually crashed her ass out he didn't initially recognize her for who she was, even when there was some wierd stuff going on. Only after she revealed herself.
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Jul 17 2006, 06:34 PM
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#150
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
My problem with JackPoints/ShadowSea is not the structure - it's the data. JackPoints may be very well structured as the evil twin of Freenet - running secretly on the hacked systems of Joe Average (remember ebaychristmas.net?). Sniffing the traffic generated by such a system is pretty much futile... it's constantly syncing, growing and moving. ShadowSea, on the other hand, is pretty much a plain old central DataHaven, as are the Nexus or the Helix - no change here. It's what stored on those system is what freaks the hell out of the paranoid me - those systems both maintain extensive profiles of the users... a state most runners should be allergic to. ;) (As Shadowrun is about the fact that no security is abolute, that is quite a gamble.) |
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