Damage to objects? Options

[ornot]

When I played a mage in SR3 I used telekinesis to steal guns on occasion. I believe the system worked like this... the mage cast the spell and had to defeat the object resistance of the gun, then the wielder of the weapon had to make a strength check to hold onto it and had to beat the mages successes. This translates quite nicely into SR4, although I'm not sure that magic fingers would work, as it allows fine manipulation, rather than great force. You could eject the clip with it, or engage the safety, but that's just my interpretation.

Power bolting the gun is even simpler. Assign the gun an object resistance rating, an armour and structure rating and determine damage based on that.

I don't know much about guns, but in my limited experience they are pretty tough (depending on model). If someone wanted to make an attack on a weapon I'd rule it in the same way that I would if they were trying to attack a barrier, except that the defender could make a defense test to reduce their successes. You'd need to assign a structure and armour rating to the weapon involved, then refer to the barrier rules.

If I was feeling particularly number crunchy (which right now I'm not) I'd also assign a structure and armour rating to the attackers weapon to see if that was damaged. Hence a claymore or a fire axe would have a high enough structure and armour that it would be unlikely to break, while a fencing foil or similar would more likely snap.

It occurs to me that this could also replace the section about blunt objects doing less damage to a barrier than sharp ones (which leads to the problem that it's easier to cut down a tree with a club than an axe). All this is, however, more maths than I can face on a sunday.

[Samaels Ghost]

[James McMurray]

[Abbandon]

Abra cadabra, GM discretion.

If a melee player wants to use something to smash something on another player just make a called shot followed by a normal melee attack and if the player hits then it has whatever affect the player wants within reason.

A grenade vs items....If you chuck a grenade at somebody i wouldnt roll for every little piece of equipment they were carrying. It would either hit the guy or it would not. Otherwise your getting into the realm of "where exactly did the bullet hit" and trying to come up with some crazy dice roll table to see if you shot the guy in a toe or a finger or killed his sunglasses or shot off his ear.

If your trying to specifically shoot something on another person it would work the same as the melee attack. You call the shot and apply a heavy negative modifier and take the shot. If it hit your destroy the item.

Sounds like some unkillable machine stole your secret commlink and your trying to break it before he gets away so nobody finds out your #1 band on your commlink is N'Sync.

If a GM has players trying to always shoot out an enemy hacker/riggers commlink to nuetralize them i would just say that you cant see the commlink. You dont need specific rules on how to do specific things.

Player: "Hey my player wants to try and wipe his ass with toilet paper in a more effecient manner"

GM: Uhhhh ok make a logic test.

Player: I got 1 success

GM: Congrats your guy now has ass wiping skill 1 and learned a more effecient way to wipe his ass

[Abbandon]

I have a question about smashing barriers.

If i try to punch my fist through a wall it has a base of 0 damage and only my hits count ?? So i have 6p damage fists and I throw my agility+unarmed and get like 5 hits. My 6p fists are totally ignored and i only do 5 damage to the wall ??

Oh i was confused about the table on sr4 pg158. Damaging barriers Table. Those are modifiers for DV but they dont have any +'s on them so i thought thats where the DV started.

So my fist would have done 11P and against an average wall it would be resisted with 8 dice(4x2). So even if the wall got 6 hits i would still smash a hole in it.

An ares predator 4 on the other hand would be 5P+ plus net hits +1. Lets say 6 hits. 12P vs an average wall or 8 dice. Even if the wall rolls 7 hits i still smash blow a hole in the wall.

Right ? Thats kinda..funny... a single bullet knocking a meter size hole in the wall..

[James McMurray]

Look at the table, bullets have only 2DV.

edit: Also, you don't need a special rule for breaking items if you just want to go the GM discretion route, but if there's already rules in place why not use them?

[sorcel]

[James McMurray]

I'm not sure what's inelegant about it. It works using the rules as written. A finer definitionof structure rating vs. size would be nice, but percentages are fairly easy to use.

[sorcel]

[Abbandon]

Oh ok.. some things get there damage value set and some get left alone. So if your shooting a wall it doesnt matter if your using a walter palm or a Panther XXL the damage value = 2 for bullets.

But for my fist i get to start with my str/2 +whatever and add on my hits.

And a high explosive rocket dv=14 would get multiplied by 3 + hits and only get soaked by 1x armor.

[Shrike30]

[sorcel]

[James McMurray]

IIRC The blast will still ricochet back and forth. The chunky salsa rules ddon't require a completely closed blast zone.

[Austere Emancipa...]

Wait, a citymaster is a wheeled vehicle, right? I'd say the spoon and clip on the average frag grenade might be mangled to make the grenade unusable, but at least the kind of nades I handled could otherwise take a truck driving over them. The probability of a 2050s+ nade detonating as a result of this would be about zero, regardless of whether the shell breaks and the insides spread all over the street or not, unless it was primed beforehand. I personally handled nade fuses designed in the 50s which could apparently go off if you so much as looked at them funny.

Grenades without relatively tough, metallic outer shells would fare worse, obviously. RL offensive grenades ("Defensive Grenades" in SR for some reason) might well splatter, as might newer frag grenades that only have a light plastic cover with a "sleeve" of preformed fragments/steel balls.

[I know you're just trying to think of ways to come up with rules for these things, but I figure if we logically handle all of these examples eventually you won't need rules. :) ]

[sorcel]

[James McMurray]

My comment was not meant to say that a grenade driven over would explode. I was responding to Shrike's comment about the blast not bouncing around under the citymaster.

[Austere Emancipa...]

sorcel: Don't get me wrong, I don't expect everyone to know how hand grenade fuse design has advanced in the past 60 years and how it's likely to advance in the next 60 (nor do I know anything about that that couldn't be summed up in a sentence). Just pointing things out, in case that particular situation does come up in some game. :)

I can't promise I'll weigh in on every hypothetical scenario you can come up with, but as long as you keep to weaponry and armor I don't think I'll be able to keep my nose out of it. :P

[sorcel]

[Phobos]

A lot of the problems vanish if you distinguish two cases :

- Objects made from solid material, and
- Objects made out of more vulnerable material encased in solid material.

For the first category, simply find the kind of material you're destroying on the table. Every (Structure Rating) damage will be 10cm into the material, just keep chopping/shooting until you're through. (That's what RAW tries to describe)

For the second category, it is usually enough to pierce the casing, then compare the reduced damage to the separate Armor/Structure Ratings of the interior. (That's what RAW forgot to mention)

If the item is carried by someone, simply use Called Shot rules.


Examples :

Sammy (STR 9) tries to chop down a tree (A6, S7) of 4 feet diameter (=120cm) with his trusty Combat Axe (STR/2+4P, AP-1, 12 Pool Dice). On average he would generate 4 hits and deal 13P, AP-1.
The tree would resist each hit with 11 Dice (2x Armor Rating), averaging 4 hits, for average 9 damage per strike.
It would fall prey to Sammy's loving care after 10 strikes (12 (diameter) x 7 (Structure) / 9 (Damage)).

If you want to find out if the axe is damaged, assume it is heavily structured (A 16, S 13) and taking about (STR/2-1,AP+2, same net hits) per strike (force = counterforce, but wood gives in more than a metal edge). So each strike would be 8P vs. 28 dice of the axe - a slight chance each strike to lose its edge.
Chopping through metal would have a damage code more along (STR/2+1,AP0) (and of course far higher Armor and Structure ratings on part of the attacked material).

Chopping through a shotgun barrel would be structured material, too (A16, S13). So Sammy would attack this one with the average 13P,AP-1 from above, but the shotgun would resist rolling 25 (2x Armor, -1 AP) dice to resist, for an average 8 hits, reducing the damage to 5. Still, this would be enough to destoy it, probably even to chop through it cleanly (though that might need 6 damage).
Now look at the damage to the combat axe : ST/2+1, 4 net hits = 10P, resisted by the axe's 26 dice (2x Armor) - unless Sammy is lucky, his axe will be damaged by this stunt.

Sammy now wants to shoot at commlinks. Commlinks normally are pretty fragile electronics (A1, S1) encased with heavy or reinforced material (A6, S7 to A8, S9). Now say he wants to waste a quality one. He uses his pistol (6P, -1AP, 12 Dice Firearms Pool) and gets an average 10P, -1AP vs the armor of 8 of the casing. The shot penetrates the casing and will damage the interior of the commlink. The interior would now roll 10 dice (2 (2x Armor) + 8 (Casing Armor)) vs 6P (2 (Bullet) + 4 (Net Hits)), averaging 3 Damage -> destroyed.
Destroying a grenade (by having the explosives inside blow up) would be the same system, only with the grenade a little tougher (like A12 for the casing, A2, S3 for the interior)



Damage to Object Rules are another nice example of a good rule explained in a way that nobody can use it :wall:

(Edited for more examples (and some spelling :rolleyes:))