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> Trodes and Dj's, what are you hooking up to them
Platinum
post Jul 6 2006, 05:41 PM
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This is a new thread over here, so that I don't keep derailing that other thread.

The discussion started with visible cyberware then changed to using a DJ/trodes instead of a commlink.

ok so trodes is easier to knock off etc, but when do you use trodes or a DJ. 9/10 times you are stationary, people are not going to be bumping into you. You can wear the trodes under a cap or helmet, but what are people hooking into their datajacks anyhow? Why even both with a datajack when you have skinlinks?

:edit:
Oh ... and also I was arguing that basically DJ's are deprecated by so many other technologies.... why bother.... but Brahm seems to think that everyone walks around with a visible purple cybereye and a datajack because his characters do.
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Brahm
post Jul 6 2006, 05:46 PM
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QUOTE (Platinum @ Jul 6 2006, 12:41 PM)
Why even both with a datajack when you have skinlinks?

Skinlink or not is something different. You can use a Datajack (or Trodes) with skinlinking, for the extra cash of 50 :nuyen: per item, instead of an optical cable. Trodes along with simrigs (worn and implanted) are the real alternatives to DJ.

AR-only can also use the gloves, or other implants into various sensory paths, as well as the above.

EDIT Personally I see skinlinks, because they use the skin as a path, as being relatively unjammable. Views on this may vary though since theoretically EMF could induce an interfering signal onto your skin. Either way they are something that you can't remotely tap into for hacking.

EDIT2 Skinlinks are not to be confused with a Touch Link, which is an input only implant on the base of the spine that allows sensory feedback to the person overlaid on top of normal senses. This would be a form of AR, though obviously at the location given only for things along the neural paths going that way. I'm not a Dr., so I don't know if that would include the ears, but I don't believe it would include the eyes.
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James McMurray
post Jul 6 2006, 05:51 PM
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It isn't datajacks/trodes instead of commlinks. The datajacks and trodes still need a system to hook up to, which is usually the commlink. The reverse is not true though, the commlink does not need a datajack or trodes to hook up to, it's just much more effective if they're there.
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Platinum
post Jul 6 2006, 05:55 PM
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ok.... I can see how it is all integrated .... but what's the point of a datajack ... that makes them so valuable? If you have a commlink, you don't need a datajack ... so what's the point?
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James McMurray
post Jul 6 2006, 05:59 PM
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A datajack allows for cold and hot sim, giving you more initiative passes and bonus dice. You can get the same benefits from trodes, but those are (slightly) bulky, easily damaged, and if you're trying to hack a system in a gunfight you're screwed if they fall off, as even the 2 seconds it takes you to put them back on could be enough for the system to locate your idle icon and kick it's nonresponsive butt.
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deek
post Jul 6 2006, 06:00 PM
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I had initially struggled with what a datajack would be used for, in SR4's current setting. From what I could tell, unless you are hooking up to a wired terminal, they are somewhat deprecated, in favor of other technologies.

I guess you could assume with an optical cable, you could connect the terminal to your commlink, as it does have inputs for other peripherals...

I also think that if you want to connect your commlink DNI, that you could use a skinlink to pipe your commlink to a datajack...

I don't know, the datajack itself, doesn't seem to do anything unique, its just another way to get a device to your DNI...but maybe I am still confused?
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Brahm
post Jul 6 2006, 06:07 PM
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QUOTE (Platinum @ Jul 6 2006, 12:55 PM)
If you have a commlink, you don't need a datajack ... so what's the point?

You don't need it in roughly the same way you didn't need the DJ to access the matrix in SR3. You can't go VR without a DJ or trodes or simrigs, and AR is the poor cousin.* The biggest change between SR3 and SR4 is that trodes function at the same speed as DJs now.

* There is an oddity in the RAW, at least as commonly interpreted so far, where if you really juice yourself up with initiative 'ware you can have one initiative pass more than a non-Technomancer has in hot VR. We are talking 100's of thousands of :nuyen: , even at the much lower 'ware costs, and a sizable Essense hit, and VR still gives better dice to your actions along with some other perks.
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deek
post Jul 6 2006, 06:25 PM
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QUOTE (Brahm)
You don't need it in roughly the same way you didn't need the DJ to access the matrix in SR3. You can't go VR without a DJ or trodes or simrigs, and AR is the poor cousin.* The biggest change between SR3 and SR4 is that trodes function at the same speed as DJs now.

Just wanting to double-check my own understanding on VR.

I have a character that has a cyberfoot. Using the 4 capacity, I put a commlink (capacity 2) and a sim module (capacity 2) in the foot. My assumption is that all of this is connected by DNI, and therefore the character can cold-sim VR (he could hot-sim if he modded his sim module, but he hasn't done that yet).

Just wanted to make sure I was understanding this correctly. So, to go VR, you need a DJ, trodes, simrigs or a DNI commlink...
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Gustave
post Jul 6 2006, 06:31 PM
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Datajacks could also be used for characters that were around before the crash 2.0.
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Brahm
post Jul 6 2006, 06:35 PM
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@deek

The rules get kinda fuzzy there. I'm, at first glance, inclined to say no you need the DJ too to bring it up to snuff given the text on page 209 and the description of the cyberware Sim Rig. But the description on page 318 of the sim module suggests that having both those implanted will work. Especially since you suggest putting them into a cyberfoot which is actually more essense than just the two separately, because that says to me you are going for cool sounding. I like saying "Yes!" to cool sounding. :)
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Moon-Hawk
post Jul 6 2006, 06:38 PM
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It's still a darn useful piece of gear. It's a reliable hookup, generally agreed to be more reliable than 'trodes, even if it doesn't work any better. Plus, you can add skinlink to it and have it be linked to everything else you have implanted, if you like. It has external wireless capability, as well as virtually unlimited memory (very handy for someone who doesn't have other cyberware with memory in it)
You certainly don't need one, there are plenty of alternatives, but it's so cheap and gives you so much, I can definitely see the average person getting one.
Plus, datajacks are "cool." Only the technophobes and the poor kids don't have datajacks. Maybe. I don't know, I'm trying to think of a setting reason why they'd be so popular.
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Brahm
post Jul 6 2006, 06:45 PM
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QUOTE (Moon-Hawk @ Jul 6 2006, 01:38 PM)
Maybe.† I don't know, I'm trying to think of a setting reason why they'd be so popular.

I think that is the key. There are reasons there for them to be popular, if you want them to be. Well not so much popular as common. Since I suspect that unnaturally beautiful natural skin is always going to be chic because it costs so damn much. Fugly functionality is the mark of the poor.

And then there are the people that go with the fugly but gold plate and Ziamondô encrust it to crassly show off their new-money wealth. ;)
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GrinderTheTroll
post Jul 6 2006, 06:51 PM
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It's nice if you happen to encounter something w/o a wireless interface are being jammed and want to chat privately with someone. Also, you can slot Knowsofts and Lingusofts into a DJ if you don' have a commlink handy. Which makes me think, what if my commlink is internal? Is there still a way to plug 'softs into the commlink or would I need a DJ for that?
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deek
post Jul 6 2006, 06:56 PM
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QUOTE (Brahm)
@deek

The rules get kinda fuzzy there. I'm, at first glance, inclined to say no you need the DJ too to bring it up to snuff given the text on page 209 and the description of the cyberware Sim Rig. But the description on page 318 of the sim module suggests that having both those implanted will work. Especially since you suggest putting them into a cyberfoot which is actually more essense than just the two separately, because that says to me you are going for cool sounding. I like saying "Yes!" to cool sounding. :)

Yeah, the reference on page 318 was really what gave me the idea to do something like that.

But you raise another question...you mention the essence is more, but I am not seeing that. An implanted commlink costs .2 essence, as does the sim module, for a total of .4, but a cyberfoot only costs .25 essence...so I am thinking it is actually cheaper to go that route, right? I mean, you lose a foot, but in this case, the character background explains why he has a cyberfoot...cramming the comm and simmod into the foot was definitely a cool sounding idea, but it looks to me it is also more essence friendly...right?
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Brahm
post Jul 6 2006, 06:59 PM
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You should be able to upload Knowsofts and Lingusofts via wireless, just like programs. I think there is something on the subject regarding and Activsofts. Also @deek's commlink in the foot, or even a head implante one I guess, could easily have a surface access hatch for slotting chips if you wanted to do it that way.
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deek
post Jul 6 2006, 07:00 PM
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QUOTE (GrinderTheTroll)
It's nice if you happen to encounter something w/o a wireless interface are being jammed and want to chat privately with someone. Also, you can slot Knowsofts and Lingusofts into a DJ if you don' have a commlink handy. Which makes me think, what if my commlink is internal? Is there still a way to plug 'softs into the commlink or would I need a DJ for that?

I think that all depends...if the commlink is internal, I think it depends on where it is...in my example, it is in a cyberfoot...I would think I would have access to it if I wanted to plug 'softs into it, but that would require be to remove my shoes and socks...not very convenient...

Had it been someplace more accessible, I would think an internal commlink could still be accessed. Maybe it is visible or has a patch of hair that covers the inputs...
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Shrike30
post Jul 6 2006, 07:06 PM
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Trodes/nanopaste don't work so hot after your character goes for an unexpected swim (since they wash off or get dislodged). Datajacks don't care.
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Brahm
post Jul 6 2006, 07:09 PM
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QUOTE (deek @ Jul 6 2006, 01:56 PM)
Yeah, the reference on page 318 was really what gave me the idea to do something like that.

But you raise another question...you mention the essence is more, but I am not seeing that.  An implanted commlink costs .2 essence, as does the sim module, for a total of .4, but a cyberfoot only costs .25 essence...so I am thinking it is actually cheaper to go that route, right?  I mean, you lose a foot, but in this case, the character background explains why he has a cyberfoot...cramming the comm and simmod into the foot was definitely a cool sounding idea, but it looks to me it is also more essence friendly...right?

Oops, you are right. I was thinking about the 0.45 cost for a lower leg. :dead: I guess that puts me back on the fence, with whether or not you brought munchies or other appropriate GM graft that session being the deciding factor. ;) Even with the DJ that still is a bit lower essense overall.

I'm not sure what is suppose to happen with your armor rating and with your phyiscal Abilities that have a value other than 3. Both overall and when you are doing something that is more focused on your feet. Like what exactly happens with a Running Test? Remember that you don't have room for any enhancements, and replacement limbs start with the basic stat of 3.

I don't use replacement limbs enough to have gone through all that. They just have never been my thing.
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Shrike30
post Jul 6 2006, 07:13 PM
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I houseruled replacement limbs to have the same stats as you do, and only Strength is different (set to racial max, and you can buy Str upgrades). It eliminates a huge number of the problems that limb stats otherwise create.
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James McMurray
post Jul 6 2006, 07:13 PM
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I don't think running is based enough on the feet to make any changes from just having a foot replaced. I'm no kinesthesiologist* though, so don't take that as the gospel.

* I know that's not quite the right word but couldn't think of a closer one.
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Shrike30
post Jul 6 2006, 07:15 PM
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A big part of running is the rotation of your feet, impact absorbtion and lifting, and that thrust you get pushing off (last) with the front of your foot. I'd say even just having your foot replaced is enough to screw with running, if it operates at a different level than the rest of your body.
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deek
post Jul 6 2006, 07:18 PM
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QUOTE (Brahm)
Oops, you are right. I was thinking about the 0.45 cost for a lower leg. :dead: I guess that puts me back on the fence, with whether or not you brought munchies or other appropriate GM graft that session being the deciding factor. ;) Even with the DJ that still is a bit lower essense overall.

I'm not sure what is suppose to happen with your armor rating and with your phyiscal Abilities that have a value other than 3. Both overall and when you are doing something that is more focused on your feet. Like what exactly happens with a Running Test? Remember that you don't have room for any enhancements, and replacement limbs start with the basic stat of 3.

I don't use replacement limbs enough to have gone through all that. They just have never been my thing.

Heh...well, seeing this is an NPC that will run with the rest of the group I GM for, I'll probably let is slide:) But really, seeing the cyberfoot is DNI, I would figure that any attachments using its own capacity would be DNI as well. So, instead of having the commlink in the head (where it normally should be), its in a cyberlimb, but functions as it normally would. And I am assuming that most, if not all cyber implants have a DNI.

Reading up on the cyberlimb, it mentioned that you would act normally unless a skill specifically used that body part. Yeah, I noticed the default 3 stat and you are right, no room for enhancements. Now it did say that each cyber limb added 1 box to the damage monitor, but I was thinking of not applying that seeing it is just a foot and not a whole limb.

For something like running, I doubt I would make any extra tests just because of the foot. Now, if someone targeted his foot, depending on his body, which I believe is naturally a 2 or 3, its not really any weaker than a real foot...the downside of course, is that his comm and simmod could get screwed...

I haven't done much with them either, but I thought it was a cool concept for this particular character.
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James McMurray
post Jul 6 2006, 07:21 PM
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Offtopic: what about the replacement feet/legs that are basically springing levers? What kinda bonuses would they give ro running? there wouldn't be ane capacity in them, since they're little more than a replacement hook hand.
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Shrike30
post Jul 6 2006, 07:23 PM
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I figured those went out of style for a reason... normal cyberlimbs handle the same tasks just fine.

Honestly, I hadn't thought about it. I'd probably allow people to make Running tests on them just like normal (maybe a small baseline penalty), but double or triple the modifiers for rough terrain (I don't imagine they'd work so well up a rocky hillside). Obviously, they'd be a lot cheaper.
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James McMurray
post Jul 6 2006, 07:33 PM
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Here's an interesting article about prosthetic legs and running. The feet being used are actually faster than normal runners' feet and taller to allow for longer strides. This technology would be ancient history in shadowrun, but looks like it could provide some nice speed boosts as long as you're on flat ground.
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