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Platinum
This is a new thread over here, so that I don't keep derailing that other thread.

The discussion started with visible cyberware then changed to using a DJ/trodes instead of a commlink.

ok so trodes is easier to knock off etc, but when do you use trodes or a DJ. 9/10 times you are stationary, people are not going to be bumping into you. You can wear the trodes under a cap or helmet, but what are people hooking into their datajacks anyhow? Why even both with a datajack when you have skinlinks?

:edit:
Oh ... and also I was arguing that basically DJ's are deprecated by so many other technologies.... why bother.... but Brahm seems to think that everyone walks around with a visible purple cybereye and a datajack because his characters do.
Brahm
QUOTE (Platinum @ Jul 6 2006, 12:41 PM)
Why even both with a datajack when you have skinlinks?

Skinlink or not is something different. You can use a Datajack (or Trodes) with skinlinking, for the extra cash of 50 nuyen.gif per item, instead of an optical cable. Trodes along with simrigs (worn and implanted) are the real alternatives to DJ.

AR-only can also use the gloves, or other implants into various sensory paths, as well as the above.

EDIT Personally I see skinlinks, because they use the skin as a path, as being relatively unjammable. Views on this may vary though since theoretically EMF could induce an interfering signal onto your skin. Either way they are something that you can't remotely tap into for hacking.

EDIT2 Skinlinks are not to be confused with a Touch Link, which is an input only implant on the base of the spine that allows sensory feedback to the person overlaid on top of normal senses. This would be a form of AR, though obviously at the location given only for things along the neural paths going that way. I'm not a Dr., so I don't know if that would include the ears, but I don't believe it would include the eyes.
James McMurray
It isn't datajacks/trodes instead of commlinks. The datajacks and trodes still need a system to hook up to, which is usually the commlink. The reverse is not true though, the commlink does not need a datajack or trodes to hook up to, it's just much more effective if they're there.
Platinum
ok.... I can see how it is all integrated .... but what's the point of a datajack ... that makes them so valuable? If you have a commlink, you don't need a datajack ... so what's the point?
James McMurray
A datajack allows for cold and hot sim, giving you more initiative passes and bonus dice. You can get the same benefits from trodes, but those are (slightly) bulky, easily damaged, and if you're trying to hack a system in a gunfight you're screwed if they fall off, as even the 2 seconds it takes you to put them back on could be enough for the system to locate your idle icon and kick it's nonresponsive butt.
deek
I had initially struggled with what a datajack would be used for, in SR4's current setting. From what I could tell, unless you are hooking up to a wired terminal, they are somewhat deprecated, in favor of other technologies.

I guess you could assume with an optical cable, you could connect the terminal to your commlink, as it does have inputs for other peripherals...

I also think that if you want to connect your commlink DNI, that you could use a skinlink to pipe your commlink to a datajack...

I don't know, the datajack itself, doesn't seem to do anything unique, its just another way to get a device to your DNI...but maybe I am still confused?
Brahm
QUOTE (Platinum @ Jul 6 2006, 12:55 PM)
If you have a commlink, you don't need a datajack ... so what's the point?

You don't need it in roughly the same way you didn't need the DJ to access the matrix in SR3. You can't go VR without a DJ or trodes or simrigs, and AR is the poor cousin.* The biggest change between SR3 and SR4 is that trodes function at the same speed as DJs now.

* There is an oddity in the RAW, at least as commonly interpreted so far, where if you really juice yourself up with initiative 'ware you can have one initiative pass more than a non-Technomancer has in hot VR. We are talking 100's of thousands of nuyen.gif , even at the much lower 'ware costs, and a sizable Essense hit, and VR still gives better dice to your actions along with some other perks.
deek
QUOTE (Brahm)
You don't need it in roughly the same way you didn't need the DJ to access the matrix in SR3. You can't go VR without a DJ or trodes or simrigs, and AR is the poor cousin.* The biggest change between SR3 and SR4 is that trodes function at the same speed as DJs now.

Just wanting to double-check my own understanding on VR.

I have a character that has a cyberfoot. Using the 4 capacity, I put a commlink (capacity 2) and a sim module (capacity 2) in the foot. My assumption is that all of this is connected by DNI, and therefore the character can cold-sim VR (he could hot-sim if he modded his sim module, but he hasn't done that yet).

Just wanted to make sure I was understanding this correctly. So, to go VR, you need a DJ, trodes, simrigs or a DNI commlink...
Gustave
Datajacks could also be used for characters that were around before the crash 2.0.
Brahm
@deek

The rules get kinda fuzzy there. I'm, at first glance, inclined to say no you need the DJ too to bring it up to snuff given the text on page 209 and the description of the cyberware Sim Rig. But the description on page 318 of the sim module suggests that having both those implanted will work. Especially since you suggest putting them into a cyberfoot which is actually more essense than just the two separately, because that says to me you are going for cool sounding. I like saying "Yes!" to cool sounding. smile.gif
Moon-Hawk
It's still a darn useful piece of gear. It's a reliable hookup, generally agreed to be more reliable than 'trodes, even if it doesn't work any better. Plus, you can add skinlink to it and have it be linked to everything else you have implanted, if you like. It has external wireless capability, as well as virtually unlimited memory (very handy for someone who doesn't have other cyberware with memory in it)
You certainly don't need one, there are plenty of alternatives, but it's so cheap and gives you so much, I can definitely see the average person getting one.
Plus, datajacks are "cool." Only the technophobes and the poor kids don't have datajacks. Maybe. I don't know, I'm trying to think of a setting reason why they'd be so popular.
Brahm
QUOTE (Moon-Hawk @ Jul 6 2006, 01:38 PM)
Maybe.† I don't know, I'm trying to think of a setting reason why they'd be so popular.

I think that is the key. There are reasons there for them to be popular, if you want them to be. Well not so much popular as common. Since I suspect that unnaturally beautiful natural skin is always going to be chic because it costs so damn much. Fugly functionality is the mark of the poor.

And then there are the people that go with the fugly but gold plate and Ziamondô encrust it to crassly show off their new-money wealth. wink.gif
GrinderTheTroll
It's nice if you happen to encounter something w/o a wireless interface are being jammed and want to chat privately with someone. Also, you can slot Knowsofts and Lingusofts into a DJ if you don' have a commlink handy. Which makes me think, what if my commlink is internal? Is there still a way to plug 'softs into the commlink or would I need a DJ for that?
deek
QUOTE (Brahm)
@deek

The rules get kinda fuzzy there. I'm, at first glance, inclined to say no you need the DJ too to bring it up to snuff given the text on page 209 and the description of the cyberware Sim Rig. But the description on page 318 of the sim module suggests that having both those implanted will work. Especially since you suggest putting them into a cyberfoot which is actually more essense than just the two separately, because that says to me you are going for cool sounding. I like saying "Yes!" to cool sounding. smile.gif

Yeah, the reference on page 318 was really what gave me the idea to do something like that.

But you raise another question...you mention the essence is more, but I am not seeing that. An implanted commlink costs .2 essence, as does the sim module, for a total of .4, but a cyberfoot only costs .25 essence...so I am thinking it is actually cheaper to go that route, right? I mean, you lose a foot, but in this case, the character background explains why he has a cyberfoot...cramming the comm and simmod into the foot was definitely a cool sounding idea, but it looks to me it is also more essence friendly...right?
Brahm
You should be able to upload Knowsofts and Lingusofts via wireless, just like programs. I think there is something on the subject regarding and Activsofts. Also @deek's commlink in the foot, or even a head implante one I guess, could easily have a surface access hatch for slotting chips if you wanted to do it that way.
deek
QUOTE (GrinderTheTroll)
It's nice if you happen to encounter something w/o a wireless interface are being jammed and want to chat privately with someone. Also, you can slot Knowsofts and Lingusofts into a DJ if you don' have a commlink handy. Which makes me think, what if my commlink is internal? Is there still a way to plug 'softs into the commlink or would I need a DJ for that?

I think that all depends...if the commlink is internal, I think it depends on where it is...in my example, it is in a cyberfoot...I would think I would have access to it if I wanted to plug 'softs into it, but that would require be to remove my shoes and socks...not very convenient...

Had it been someplace more accessible, I would think an internal commlink could still be accessed. Maybe it is visible or has a patch of hair that covers the inputs...
Shrike30
Trodes/nanopaste don't work so hot after your character goes for an unexpected swim (since they wash off or get dislodged). Datajacks don't care.
Brahm
QUOTE (deek @ Jul 6 2006, 01:56 PM)
Yeah, the reference on page 318 was really what gave me the idea to do something like that.

But you raise another question...you mention the essence is more, but I am not seeing that.  An implanted commlink costs .2 essence, as does the sim module, for a total of .4, but a cyberfoot only costs .25 essence...so I am thinking it is actually cheaper to go that route, right?  I mean, you lose a foot, but in this case, the character background explains why he has a cyberfoot...cramming the comm and simmod into the foot was definitely a cool sounding idea, but it looks to me it is also more essence friendly...right?

Oops, you are right. I was thinking about the 0.45 cost for a lower leg. dead.gif I guess that puts me back on the fence, with whether or not you brought munchies or other appropriate GM graft that session being the deciding factor. wink.gif Even with the DJ that still is a bit lower essense overall.

I'm not sure what is suppose to happen with your armor rating and with your phyiscal Abilities that have a value other than 3. Both overall and when you are doing something that is more focused on your feet. Like what exactly happens with a Running Test? Remember that you don't have room for any enhancements, and replacement limbs start with the basic stat of 3.

I don't use replacement limbs enough to have gone through all that. They just have never been my thing.
Shrike30
I houseruled replacement limbs to have the same stats as you do, and only Strength is different (set to racial max, and you can buy Str upgrades). It eliminates a huge number of the problems that limb stats otherwise create.
James McMurray
I don't think running is based enough on the feet to make any changes from just having a foot replaced. I'm no kinesthesiologist* though, so don't take that as the gospel.

* I know that's not quite the right word but couldn't think of a closer one.
Shrike30
A big part of running is the rotation of your feet, impact absorbtion and lifting, and that thrust you get pushing off (last) with the front of your foot. I'd say even just having your foot replaced is enough to screw with running, if it operates at a different level than the rest of your body.
deek
QUOTE (Brahm)
Oops, you are right. I was thinking about the 0.45 cost for a lower leg. dead.gif I guess that puts me back on the fence, with whether or not you brought munchies or other appropriate GM graft that session being the deciding factor. wink.gif Even with the DJ that still is a bit lower essense overall.

I'm not sure what is suppose to happen with your armor rating and with your phyiscal Abilities that have a value other than 3. Both overall and when you are doing something that is more focused on your feet. Like what exactly happens with a Running Test? Remember that you don't have room for any enhancements, and replacement limbs start with the basic stat of 3.

I don't use replacement limbs enough to have gone through all that. They just have never been my thing.

Heh...well, seeing this is an NPC that will run with the rest of the group I GM for, I'll probably let is slide:) But really, seeing the cyberfoot is DNI, I would figure that any attachments using its own capacity would be DNI as well. So, instead of having the commlink in the head (where it normally should be), its in a cyberlimb, but functions as it normally would. And I am assuming that most, if not all cyber implants have a DNI.

Reading up on the cyberlimb, it mentioned that you would act normally unless a skill specifically used that body part. Yeah, I noticed the default 3 stat and you are right, no room for enhancements. Now it did say that each cyber limb added 1 box to the damage monitor, but I was thinking of not applying that seeing it is just a foot and not a whole limb.

For something like running, I doubt I would make any extra tests just because of the foot. Now, if someone targeted his foot, depending on his body, which I believe is naturally a 2 or 3, its not really any weaker than a real foot...the downside of course, is that his comm and simmod could get screwed...

I haven't done much with them either, but I thought it was a cool concept for this particular character.
James McMurray
Offtopic: what about the replacement feet/legs that are basically springing levers? What kinda bonuses would they give ro running? there wouldn't be ane capacity in them, since they're little more than a replacement hook hand.
Shrike30
I figured those went out of style for a reason... normal cyberlimbs handle the same tasks just fine.

Honestly, I hadn't thought about it. I'd probably allow people to make Running tests on them just like normal (maybe a small baseline penalty), but double or triple the modifiers for rough terrain (I don't imagine they'd work so well up a rocky hillside). Obviously, they'd be a lot cheaper.
James McMurray
Here's an interesting article about prosthetic legs and running. The feet being used are actually faster than normal runners' feet and taller to allow for longer strides. This technology would be ancient history in shadowrun, but looks like it could provide some nice speed boosts as long as you're on flat ground.
Shrike30
Hey, there's always Kid Stealth legs...
Lagomorph
to me, even though DJ's aren't required anymore, most people still have them since they we're all using them just a scant 6 years ago from 2070.
booklord
I kind of figured that trodes only allowed you the commlink to talk to you. They can't read your mind. Thus to interact with your commlink you need to use AR Gloves or the keyboard pad on your commlink.

While datajacks work for 2 way communications.

You can get that impression from reading the book. After all why does your commlink need a keyboard pad if using trodes you can talk to it? What is the point of AR Gloves?
James McMurray
Where at?
Moon-Hawk
QUOTE (booklord)
I kind of figured that trodes only allowed you the commlink to talk to you. They can't read your mind. Thus to interact with your commlink you need to use AR Gloves or the keyboard pad on your commlink.

I find that extremely unlikely. Reading from the mind is trivial compared to writing to the mind.
I think the book is pretty clear that trodes can replace a datajack. Trodes replace an image link and AR gloves as well. If you don't have trodes or a datajack, that's when you need the image link, the AR gloves, etc.
Platinum
QUOTE (Moon-Hawk @ Jul 6 2006, 02:38 PM)
It's still a darn useful piece of gear.  It's a reliable hookup, generally agreed to be more reliable than 'trodes, even if it doesn't work any better.  Plus, you can add skinlink to it and have it be linked to everything else you have implanted, if you like.  It has external wireless capability, as well as virtually unlimited memory (very handy for someone who doesn't have other cyberware with memory in it)
You certainly don't need one, there are plenty of alternatives, but it's so cheap and gives you so much, I can definitely see the average person getting one.
Plus, datajacks are "cool."  Only the technophobes and the poor kids don't have datajacks.  Maybe.  I don't know, I'm trying to think of a setting reason why they'd be so popular.

I am sick today, therefore a little slow on the uptake.

What do you mean by realiable hookup? What are you hooking up too?
The only reason I see to get one over a commlink is for hotVR. What are you meaning by external wireless? (you already have a commlink for wireless) Unlimited memory,
can't you have the same think through a wireless memory module subscribed to your pan?

This is part of the reason I find sr4 frustrating, because PANs and wireless doesn't seem to be well thought out.... it seems patched together.
deek
Yeah, I think I am subscribing to this idea as well...there are a variety of objects that will let you do the same thing. Trodes function the same as a DJ, in regards to input/output to a commlink. If the objects on both ends of the communication have skinlinks, than that could work as well. If all the objects are cyberware, thus using DNI's, then again, different ways to achieve the same result...
Moon-Hawk
I'm saying it's a more reliable connection to your brain than 'trodes. It's not as likely to be screwed up by some physical activity, and it's immune to tapping and hacking (although other links in your chain might not be)
Your datajack has wireless capability, so that means you can get direct mental control of any nearby device that will allow it. True, you could do that with your comlink, too, but you always have your datajack on you, even in the shower or in bed. Heck, even if it's just giving you a wireless connection to your commlink that's still useful.
If you don't have much or any other cyber the jack is a good place to add skinlink, too.
You could absolutely have memory in another module, but the datajack can't be lost, stolen, or simply forgotten, and personally I think a chunk of memory like that would be damn handy.
deek
Oh, most definitely, I agree it is a more reliable connection. Trodes can be knocked off or you may not have your commlink with you. Plus, as you said, with a DJ any wireless device could be accessed and the DJ is always with you.

Technically, an implanted commlink is always on you as well...and I guess this is now hitting some grey area, at least in my mind. A DJ doesn't take the place of a commlink, so what, you can only access one device, right? If you are attacked via your DJ, what sort of damage can be done to you? A DJ is just a connection, but the more I am thinking about it, the more I am confused at what other capabilities it may have...
Shrike30
A datajack, if memory serves, combines linking to a device, memory storage, a simrig, and a couple other pieces of gear into one implant. If nothing else, it eats up less subscription slots on your commlink...
deek
Yep, page 331 states that a DJ allows users to slot/access chips, softs and BTLs as well as provide storage space. I missed that the first several times I glanced over it:)

I still think, at double the essence cost (.2), an internal commlink gives a DJ a run...
Brahm
It doesn't make sense for it to combine in it the whole of a simrig, because that is a 0.5 Essense implant. I think reading page 318 as deek did earlier is a problem because it would mean that pretty much any cyberimplant could be used for simsense, because very few of them, like storage compartments, do not have any sort of DNI. I think what was intended by the text on page 318 is you plug in the external module somewhere along the whole commlink, datajack, etc. line of simsense related equipment.

But that's just a guess, trying to reconcile it with that paragraph near the bottom of page 209 and with the descriptions of all the equipment. It could also mean just datajacks, implanted commlinks (EDIT which might include the equivalent of a DJ as deek mentions above), and other simsense enabling equipment as mentioned on page 209.
QUOTE
This is part of the reason I find sr4 frustrating, because PANs and wireless doesn't seem to be well thought out.... it seems patched together.

It sort of is. With SR4 they started with the larger SR3 text as a basis, either cutting and pasting over things into SR4 or just cutting pieces out of SR3 and then filling in new portions for wireless. So it seems pretty natural to get sort of a patchy feel to it. The worst place for this is regarding vehicles. However on the upside this does seem to help retain a lot of the SR3 flavours, for better or worse.

If you mean it doesn't quite make sense if you try to figure out how all this stuff would really work, well unfortunately that's a long running issue with computing technology in Shadowrun. Best not to try think about it too hard. Especially when you are sick. biggrin.gif
Platinum
QUOTE (Brahm)
If you mean it doesn't quite make sense if you try to figure out how all this stuff would really work, well unfortunately that's a long running issue with computing technology in Shadowrun. Best not to try think about it too hard. Especially when you are sick. biggrin.gif

In all honesty.... I am just an old curmudgeon. Extra cranky with a head cold.

I have been too harsh on you Brahm. Thanks for taking the extra time to point things out.
booklord
QUOTE
Where at?



Since you asked for it.....

pg 218
QUOTE
Trodes -- A headband or net worn on the head (often under a wig or hat) that allows the reception of simsense


pg 318
QUOTE
The sim module is an ASIST interface that controls the simsense experience.†  It translates computer signals (simsense data ) into nueral signals, allowing the user to directly experience simsense programs and virtual reality.†  A sim module must be accessed via trodes or a direct nueral interface ( datajack, implanted commlink ).


pg 318
QUOTE
Trodes: This net/headband of electrodes and ultrasound emitters enables the wearer to experience simsense and are used with a sim module


Reception, Experiences -- neither of these words to describe 2 way communication. They describe one-way communication only.

Also in the sim module description it says that the datajack and implanted commlink are both direct nueral interfaces while trodes are not. If trodes allowed 2 way communication between a user and his sim module then it would be an interface wouldn't it?

Where in the book does it say you can interact with ( not just receive or experience ) simsense using trodes?
deek
I don't know, I like the idea of PANs and wireless...I mean, we are really not that far away from it anyways. I mean, I can already take my wi-fi laptop out and find a decent connection almost anywhere. I know there are plans in major cities, Chicago (the one I read about), that were going to build the wi-fi infrastructure downtown and just let businesses use/rent it as a service. Even in the city I live in, Fort Wayne, IN, a guy I know does a lot of wardriving and basically found that you walk 100 yards in any direction, and you will find a wi-fi hotspot...

So, in 64 years...PANs and wireless everything does not seem that far off...

I agree, it does seem to be a bit open, security wise, but I have been amazed at how many wireless routers I have encountered that stuck with all the defaults...once you know how a linksys and a motorola are setup, its pretty easy to hop on and share the bandwidth...

But, I think that even though so much of the environment is wireless in SR4, that for a lot of security installations and whatnot, they would just run wired...fiber optics and cable have to be dirt cheap...
Platinum
I think the idea of wireless deployments and pans on that scale is an exaggeration. It is like the 1970's movies showing everyone using flying cars and dressed in silver suits. There are major holes with the scale of wireless. I do not think that wireless will go away ... I think it is here to stay, but I think that the wireless spectrums will be full long before 2030 even, worms, viruses, and many new forms of attacks will be rampant.
Shrike30
Shadowrun was originally about a lot of the themes of the 80s blown way out of proportion. What's so bad about it's latest incarnation being about a lot of more recent themes also blown out of proportion?
Geekkake
QUOTE (Shrike30)
Shadowrun was originally about a lot of the themes of the 80s blown way out of proportion. What's so bad about it's latest incarnation being about a lot of more recent themes also blown out of proportion?

Well spoken.
Brahm
QUOTE (Platinum @ Jul 6 2006, 05:03 PM)
I have been too harsh on you Brahm.  Thanks for taking the extra time to point things out.

Well likewise I'm been more than a bit harsh with you *cough* at times. embarrassed.gif

Thanks for listening anyway.
X-Kalibur
QUOTE (Geekkake)
QUOTE (Shrike30 @ Jul 6 2006, 05:22 PM)
Shadowrun was originally about a lot of the themes of the 80s blown way out of proportion.  What's so bad about it's latest incarnation being about a lot of more recent themes also blown out of proportion?

Well spoken.

That and the game is set in our future. It has to evolve with our notions of futuristic. In the 80s, this was amazingly fast computers known as "decks" that looked like yamaha synthesizers. Now it's about small, in your pocket do-it-all devices.

In the 80's it was metal and man meshing. Now it's more than just metal, we've come a long way since then in areas such as cloning, so bioware is the hot-as-drek thing to sport.

Laser weapons are just impractical, moving along wink.gif (so are rail guns currently)

So yeah, evolution is good, 'mmkay?
Demon_Bob
QUOTE (deek @ Jul 6 2006, 01:00 PM)
I think that all depends...if the commlink is internal, I think it depends on where it is...in my example, it is in a cyberfoot...I would think I would have access to it if I wanted to plug 'softs into it, but that would require be to remove my shoes and socks...not very convenient...


I guess you could have you shoe wired to your cyberfoot and plug into the shoe.
Why am I thinking of Get Smart now?

QUOTE
Had it been someplace more accessible, I would think an internal commlink could still be accessed.  Maybe it is visible or has a patch of hair that covers the inputs...


With the rate computers change now a days I would think that the com link would be able to be unplugged and removed from wherever without surgery. Otherwise every few years you have to see a surgeon.
Abbandon
Datajacks and cybercomms allow you to hooks things together without making you vulnerable to hacking through wi-fi.

The book did suggest that trodes and DNI are different. Which makes me go wtf. If your running a comm w/ sim mod with a trode net to go VR, how the heck are you giving commands? Does it only work if your comm is tied to a DJ/cybercomm that are like the only two things capable of outputting nueral commands??

How would the adept or mage use VR then since this is implying you have to be cybered to give commands if the trodes dont work both ways??

I think this is the way it should be:

Whatever a datajack or implanted comm can do so can trodes. A jack is 500Y, a cyber comm is 1000Y+ and trodes are only 100Y. However like everyone has said they can get knocked off your head and what not and then you will be unable access the matrix.

I think trodes should work independantly of a comm. A datajack doesnt need a comm to translate cyber commands, so if im routing smartgun data through a trode net to my cybereyes it shouldnt have to be routed through a comm to tranlsate it into nueral impulses. If you have normal eyeballs then yeah it would have to be switched to simsense.

Likewise if i have my smartgun routed through a trode net i should be able to send mental commands back through it like i can with a datajack/cybercomm to do things like eject clips, switch modes, or fire.

Trodes have to be two-way or you wouldnt be able to do anything in VR.
hobgoblin
QUOTE (Demon_Bob)
QUOTE
Had it been someplace more accessible, I would think an internal commlink could still be accessed.  Maybe it is visible or has a patch of hair that covers the inputs...


With the rate computers change now a days I would think that the com link would be able to be unplugged and removed from wherever without surgery. Otherwise every few years you have to see a surgeon.

i kinda recall the same argument being made about C2 decks in SR3 and older...

given that os and firewall is given as software, both should be updateable via downloads. that leaves signal and response. of those, signal can be boosted by getting hold of a sat link (or use a drone as a signal repeater)...

question is, how often does sota hit the comlink response rating in SR4...
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